I believe it was referring to themselves - starting out as rebels/outsiders and then becoming 'establishment' at the time of TIMT.

You know it's "I", right? :D

Of course.

For some reason I remember the music as 'oh' though. (Specifically the vowel sound in 'cot', so not really 'oh' either.)

It made sense at the time.

I hope it is just you that can compare Camus to Katie Hopkins! Wtf. Ha.

I tried to quote ata but the quote within the quote got lost..! It's from The Rebel which I found his hardest to get into (The Plague is my favourite - fantastic) but that aside sure the quote is surely just a reference to how rebellion can soon be corrupted, power corrupts and the right and just reasons behind the rebellion can get lost once the oppressor is defeated I guess the 'great fear' during the French Revolution would be an example. Or the atrocities in the name of communism

He was an incredibly humane writer and one for whom the end certainly did not justify any means whatever in order to get there even if for the supposed greater good. Life is absurd essentially but he gives you hope when trying to work your way through it. Comparing his words to the Daily Mail.....absurd indeed:)

Aye, I know it's a bit twisted. Still, obvs not being around in his time or before, dunno what's changed. Think there's definitely a strong inclination for people to kinda conflate the roles of victim and perpetrator though. Maybe there's nowt new about it, I dunno. Maybe when the slave trade was abolished, people were saying to ex-slaves "bloody hell, you'll be wanting rights next".

Read The Plague ages ago but never read The Rebel. Aye, sensible way of looking at it but don't think my way of looking at it is particularly farfetched though, especially today. Maybe there were equivalents to things like "do-gooder" and "virtue signaller" being used as derogatory terms back in the day, maybe people were as keen to regard victims with suspicion and make excuses for perpetrators as they are now. Who knows..

Tis farfetched though...to imagine Camus penning anything for the Daily Mail. Tis. Just no. Your point is not his point neither. He's not conflating the role of victim and perpetrator. In the examples you use - Hillsborough, Grenfell, Weinstein....the victims demand justice. The relationships are unequal and that's played its part in events and/or in trying and trying and trying to be heard but the victim wants justice and to be seen as equal - to be seen as equal deserves justice...we are all supposed to be equal under the law. But they're not rising up to take power, to overthrow an oppressor, to bring in a new regime....the ideals of revolutionaries can get lost.....once you obtain power too often it corrupts. It didn't happen to Mandela for example but Zuma's corrupt. Aung San Suu Kyi is surprising many (though I feel it's because people don't recognise the power the military holds...or don't want to see it cos it spoils the narrative). The French Revolution brought terror and paranoia, communism has never fulfilled its promise of equality, man challenges the idea of a God but too often wants to behave like one.....

And to your point - sure it's the classic sign of a bully to blame the victim...it's probably one of the main reasons people don't speak up about rape and assault, about being bullied and why inequality is still with us.....that attitude of it being your fault if you're not getting on in life...it's classic...turn it round - 'look what you made me do', the bully was once the victim....that's psychology, that's mind games on a personal level and preventing rebellion on the political:)

Camus Debates! that's what we need from a Manics forum.

Lol nah, I'm not imagining Camus writing anything for the Daily Mail or anything like that, just trying to show how people can appropriate the shit out of anything really and how meaning can come across differently over time. I completely accept Camus' intended meaning of the line, but yeah, the way it can be appropriated like I've mentioned is summat that doesn't sit well with me at all.

Montana/Autumn/78 and Prologue To History really are two of the best songs they've ever done, and the essence of everything they are.

The very definition of 'in retrospect we wish we'd put it on the album'.

They could have been world-conquering singles!

Well, maybe not Prologue, because it was the most full-on packed fusillade of lyrics since PCP.

Has that theloveof Manics discography site died a death now? Had a quick search on here and only found a couple of comments about it and not having much joy on google. Loved that site.

Does anyone have the sales figures (approximate will do) for RTF and Futurology? Not been able to find them.

On the official chart history site it says only EMG, KYE, SATT and Futurology reached no 2 in the charts and TIMTTMY no 1. Though I never noticed the chart positions, or if they are accurate? I'm surprised the other albums were not placed higher.

According to Music Week, Rewind The Film sold 59,311 and Futurology 49,826.

Brilliant. Thank you! What territories do these sales cover?

How many MSP albums have had track 2 as lead single?

Off the top of my head...

GATS
EMG
TIMT
LB
SATT
RIF

Any others?