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Automatik 06-02-2018 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by UEF (Post 2669456)
You know it's "I", right? :D

Of course.

For some reason I remember the music as 'oh' though. (Specifically the vowel sound in 'cot', so not really 'oh' either.)

It made sense at the time.

raven 07-02-2018 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by sculptureofabloke (Post 2669436)
Very rarely listen to Masses with it not being on a standard studio album. Grabbed one of me copies of Know Your Enemy to stick on, ended up being the Australian one with it on and hearing it now has reminded me of how I felt first time hearing it.

Is it just me or is that "A slave begins be demanding justice, ends by wanting to wear a crown" line a bit Daily Mail? I know it's Camus, but they've used it to end a song called The Masses Against The Classes. Today, it makes me think of some of the attitudes people have towards victims. We read it all with Yewtree, we're seeing it with Weinstein etc, alleged victims are only coming forward for the attention. The victim is undermined to the extent that people are more focussed on their motives for coming forward now (why not then?), than on what the alleged perpetrators are supposed to have done. Do the survivors of Grenfell, the families of Hillsborough etc deserve compensation? - fine, we'll accept responsibility, but don't push it.

"A slave begins by demanding justice and ends by wanting to wear a crown" is something I could imagine Katie Hopkins saying, if she were eloquent enough.

I hope it is just you that can compare Camus to Katie Hopkins! Wtf. Ha.

I tried to quote ata but the quote within the quote got lost..! It's from The Rebel which I found his hardest to get into (The Plague is my favourite - fantastic) but that aside sure the quote is surely just a reference to how rebellion can soon be corrupted, power corrupts and the right and just reasons behind the rebellion can get lost once the oppressor is defeated I guess the 'great fear' during the French Revolution would be an example. Or the atrocities in the name of communism

He was an incredibly humane writer and one for whom the end certainly did not justify any means whatever in order to get there even if for the supposed greater good. Life is absurd essentially but he gives you hope when trying to work your way through it. Comparing his words to the Daily Mail.....absurd indeed:)

sculptureofabloke 07-02-2018 07:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by raven (Post 2669473)
I hope it is just you that can compare Camus to Katie Hopkins! Wtf. Ha.

I tried to quote ata but the quote within the quote got lost..! It's from The Rebel which I found his hardest to get into (The Plague is my favourite - fantastic) but that aside sure the quote is surely just a reference to how rebellion can soon be corrupted, power corrupts and the right and just reasons behind the rebellion can get lost once the oppressor is defeated I guess the 'great fear' during the French Revolution would be an example. Or the atrocities in the name of communism

He was an incredibly humane writer and one for whom the end certainly did not justify any means whatever in order to get there even if for the supposed greater good. Life is absurd essentially but he gives you hope when trying to work your way through it. Comparing his words to the Daily Mail.....absurd indeed:)

Aye, I know it's a bit twisted. Still, obvs not being around in his time or before, dunno what's changed. Think there's definitely a strong inclination for people to kinda conflate the roles of victim and perpetrator though. Maybe there's nowt new about it, I dunno. Maybe when the slave trade was abolished, people were saying to ex-slaves "bloody hell, you'll be wanting rights next".

Read The Plague ages ago but never read The Rebel. Aye, sensible way of looking at it but don't think my way of looking at it is particularly farfetched though, especially today. Maybe there were equivalents to things like "do-gooder" and "virtue signaller" being used as derogatory terms back in the day, maybe people were as keen to regard victims with suspicion and make excuses for perpetrators as they are now. Who knows..

raven 07-02-2018 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by sculptureofabloke (Post 2669476)
Aye, I know it's a bit twisted. Still, obvs not being around in his time or before, dunno what's changed. Think there's definitely a strong inclination for people to kinda conflate the roles of victim and perpetrator though. Maybe there's nowt new about it, I dunno. Maybe when the slave trade was abolished, people were saying to ex-slaves "bloody hell, you'll be wanting rights next".

Read The Plague ages ago but never read The Rebel. Aye, sensible way of looking at it but don't think my way of looking at it is particularly farfetched though, especially today. Maybe there were equivalents to things like "do-gooder" and "virtue signaller" being used as derogatory terms back in the day, maybe people were as keen to regard victims with suspicion and make excuses for perpetrators as they are now. Who knows..

Tis farfetched though...to imagine Camus penning anything for the Daily Mail. Tis. Just no. Your point is not his point neither. He's not conflating the role of victim and perpetrator. In the examples you use - Hillsborough, Grenfell, Weinstein....the victims demand justice. The relationships are unequal and that's played its part in events and/or in trying and trying and trying to be heard but the victim wants justice and to be seen as equal - to be seen as equal deserves justice...we are all supposed to be equal under the law. But they're not rising up to take power, to overthrow an oppressor, to bring in a new regime....the ideals of revolutionaries can get lost.....once you obtain power too often it corrupts. It didn't happen to Mandela for example but Zuma's corrupt. Aung San Suu Kyi is surprising many (though I feel it's because people don't recognise the power the military holds...or don't want to see it cos it spoils the narrative). The French Revolution brought terror and paranoia, communism has never fulfilled its promise of equality, man challenges the idea of a God but too often wants to behave like one.....

And to your point - sure it's the classic sign of a bully to blame the victim...it's probably one of the main reasons people don't speak up about rape and assault, about being bullied and why inequality is still with us.....that attitude of it being your fault if you're not getting on in life...it's classic...turn it round - 'look what you made me do', the bully was once the victim....that's psychology, that's mind games on a personal level and preventing rebellion on the political:)

Routine Builder 08-02-2018 06:39

Camus Debates! that's what we need from a Manics forum.

sculptureofabloke 08-02-2018 11:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by raven (Post 2669493)
Tis farfetched though...to imagine Camus penning anything for the Daily Mail. Tis. Just no. Your point is not his point neither. He's not conflating the role of victim and perpetrator. In the examples you use - Hillsborough, Grenfell, Weinstein....the victims demand justice. The relationships are unequal and that's played its part in events and/or in trying and trying and trying to be heard but the victim wants justice and to be seen as equal - to be seen as equal deserves justice...we are all supposed to be equal under the law. But they're not rising up to take power, to overthrow an oppressor, to bring in a new regime....the ideals of revolutionaries can get lost.....once you obtain power too often it corrupts. It didn't happen to Mandela for example but Zuma's corrupt. Aung San Suu Kyi is surprising many (though I feel it's because people don't recognise the power the military holds...or don't want to see it cos it spoils the narrative). The French Revolution brought terror and paranoia, communism has never fulfilled its promise of equality, man challenges the idea of a God but too often wants to behave like one.....

And to your point - sure it's the classic sign of a bully to blame the victim...it's probably one of the main reasons people don't speak up about rape and assault, about being bullied and why inequality is still with us.....that attitude of it being your fault if you're not getting on in life...it's classic...turn it round - 'look what you made me do', the bully was once the victim....that's psychology, that's mind games on a personal level and preventing rebellion on the political:)

Lol nah, I'm not imagining Camus writing anything for the Daily Mail or anything like that, just trying to show how people can appropriate the shit out of anything really and how meaning can come across differently over time. I completely accept Camus' intended meaning of the line, but yeah, the way it can be appropriated like I've mentioned is summat that doesn't sit well with me at all.

Automatik 20-02-2018 20:36

Montana/Autumn/78 and Prologue To History really are two of the best songs they've ever done, and the essence of everything they are.

The very definition of 'in retrospect we wish we'd put it on the album'.

They could have been world-conquering singles!

Well, maybe not Prologue, because it was the most full-on packed fusillade of lyrics since PCP.

sculptureofabloke 22-02-2018 13:04

Has that theloveof Manics discography site died a death now? Had a quick search on here and only found a couple of comments about it and not having much joy on google. Loved that site.

Automatik 22-02-2018 16:24

Does anyone have the sales figures (approximate will do) for RTF and Futurology? Not been able to find them.

rosetree 28-02-2018 01:38

On the official chart history site it says only EMG, KYE, SATT and Futurology reached no 2 in the charts and TIMTTMY no 1. Though I never noticed the chart positions, or if they are accurate? I'm surprised the other albums were not placed higher.

jenvidg 28-02-2018 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Automatik (Post 2669978)
Does anyone have the sales figures (approximate will do) for RTF and Futurology? Not been able to find them.

According to Music Week, Rewind The Film sold 59,311 and Futurology 49,826.

Automatik 28-02-2018 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenvidg (Post 2670076)
According to Music Week, Rewind The Film sold 59,311 and Futurology 49,826.

Brilliant. Thank you! What territories do these sales cover?

junkymotown 01-03-2018 02:07

How many MSP albums have had track 2 as lead single?

Off the top of my head...

GATS
EMG
TIMT
LB
SATT
RIF

Any others?

sculptureofabloke 01-03-2018 08:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by junkymotown (Post 2670096)
How many MSP albums have had track 2 as lead single?

Off the top of my head...

GATS
EMG
TIMT
LB
SATT
RIF

Any others?

Wonder if that ought to count? No video for Underdogs, limited edition 7", don't ever remember hearing it on the radio, erased from history on the 10th anniversary... suspect the band see Your Love Alone as the lead single, that's when the publicity cycle kicked in if I remember rightly.

Do JFPL and RTF count? I remember Zane Lowe premiering Peeled Apples and that being the first song broadcast anywhere for Journal, think he might've been meant to play Jackie Collins but it came down to personal preference on the day? Course, there were no actual singles for the album, couple of promos but at least Jackie got a video, think really Jackie is as much a single as International Blue or Distant Colours given their lack of physical release too.

RTF, yeah, like Peeled Apples, the title track was the first song broadcast from the album. Got a promo of it, love the video, but Show Me The Wonder was the one with the 7"s.

But yeah, 2's a good number for em.

sculptureofabloke 01-03-2018 08:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenvidg (Post 2670076)
According to Music Week, Rewind The Film sold 59,311 and Futurology 49,826.

That's interesting, would've expected Futurology to have been more commercially popular than Rewind The Film.

Just gone through the tours, for Futurology the total capacities for the venues they did on the UK tour was around 49,000 and for Rewind The Film only about 20,000 even counting Festival No6. So the more low-key album and tour was more successful, in the UK at least.

Wonder if this time around they're gonna sell more gig tickets than albums, not out of the question looking at those figures.


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