Journal...the samples

[andy]

So, JFPL is richeys words as we all know, with some editing etc where necessary

However what I was think of earlier when listening to the album was the samples. Were these chosen by the band (Mr Wire I presume if so) or are they annotated in The 'Folder' or from clippings / notes etc?

[Symmanine]

The sample from Virgin Suicide is from around 1999 or 2000, so that's definitely not in the "folder". I don't think the others were either.

[andy]

Originally Posted by Symmanine

The sample from Virgin Suicide is from around 1999 or 2000, so that's definitely not in the "folder". I don't think the others were either.

Ahhh good point! Lol

I didn't think to check the samples dates.

The machinist was 2004 so there's my answer lol

Interesting that they were added then.

The folder fascinates me. I'm sure wire once said they considered making a book from it. Sadly we won't get to know the meaning behind some of the things, like the word opulence scratched in red on bugs bunny etc

[sculptureofabloke]

I think they work well enough, shame we'll never know what Richey thought of Journal. Don't even really know what Richey thought of The Holy Bible musically, as James has consistently pointed out he'd get a load of lyrics off Richey and write the music around them. Richey never contributed to the music, whether he was able to imagine the kind of sounds he'd like his lyrics put to, I have no idea. Whether Richey would've picked the samples the band did if he'd have been around when they were, I don't know. I'd like to think so...

It's interesting that they chose to use samples again. Actually, across the albums they've used them as often as not if we count the unauthorised use of Captain Beefheart on the promo version of As Holy As The Soil which wasn't on the final pressing.. Anyway, I love Journal For Plague Lovers and while there are the obvious similarities (Jenny Saville artwork, more than usual use of samples, no keyboards, Richey lyrics) I don't think they're really as is often made out.. Can't really put my finger on it but it just feels very different to listen to, maybe that's more to do with everything that's happened inbetween the albums than everything that happened in the studio though I don't know.

[sculptureofabloke]

I thought the Holy Bible samples were Richey's doing too, and listening to ones on Journal I think they fit just as well as the Holy Bible ones so could feel like his doing too. Well, if they'd existed before he buggered off.

[darkanddivine]

In some senses, I get the impression that Journal was as much an exercise in theory than anything else. Using the lyrics from Richey to connect with the past, to in some senses put it to bed. It might also partly explain the bands reluctance to play it much.

Although it is often said that Richey had a lot of control over things, I think that was more implied than anything else. The music of that era is pushed by his ideas and how he wanted the band to be, but that is quite abstract. The music and sonic side of things is very much from the hand of James.

That and given the lack of lyrical input from Nicky on both albums for obvious reasons, I guess he (as the band curator) would have directed it in the spirit of Richey.

That would be my (rough) take on how that all transpired.

[andy]

I think he kind of had an idea because didn't he come out with the pantera meets screamadelica quote which James has since referenced?

[darkanddivine]

Originally Posted by andy

I think he kind of had an idea because didn't he come out with the pantera meets screamadelica quote which James has since referenced?

Yeah, he definitely said that and it was acknowledged by James too. I think the main thing there is I remember James saying how nervy he was presenting the songs that would form part of Everything Must Go to Richey. He wasn't sure how he felt about them etc, so that makes me think that he was certainly trying to meet Richey in the middle somewhere.

[andy]

Originally Posted by darkanddivine

Yeah, he definitely said that and it was acknowledged by James too. I think the main thing there is I remember James saying how nervy he was presenting the songs that would form part of Everything Must Go to Richey. He wasn't sure how he felt about them etc, so that makes me think that he was certainly trying to meet Richey in the middle somewhere.

Yep

Kevin carter James said he had a distinct feeling Richey didn't like and I'm sure he was worried for the first time there would be a division in what that band wanted to do

[Automatik]

Originally Posted by andy

So, JFPL is richeys words as we all know, with some editing etc where necessary

And a great deal where it wasn't necessary, it could be argued. I was actually shocked by how far the editing and final presentation departed from what was clearly intended at times when you look at the original texts - William's Last Words and JCEQT would be the standard examples.

Originally Posted by andy

The machinist was 2004 so there's my answer lol

Interesting that they were added then.

I recall Nicky saying in an interview when JFPL came out that The Machinist in particular was a film that they had discussed and that they were certain that Richey would have loved it, hence its inclusion.

They are right, of course. It is an excellent film (if anyone reading this hasn't seen it, do) and does fit perfectly even though it was released ten years later.

[Mr Richey]

Originally Posted by Automatik

And a great deal where it wasn't necessary, it could be argued. I was actually shocked by how far the editing and final presentation departed from what was clearly intended at times when you look at the original texts - William's Last Words and JCEQT would be the standard examples.

It may have seemed shocking because this was the first time that the band presented the original, unedited words to their audience. But it was nothing new. I remember reading an interview with James (possibly in Melody Maker) where he said that the original words for "Faster" were one side of lined A4 paper where Richey had filled the entire page from top to bottom.

[Routine Builder]

At the time, I found it odd that Nicky edited them for James to write music to. Surely the music should come first, then the editing. The tone was off got a few lyrics, the original lyrics for the song JFPL read like the hard R rated version of Archives of Pain 2 but ended up sounding like well Rush....

[hummingbird]

I remember James said Richey thought Kevin Carter sounded like the girl from ipanema when he first played it to him. He responded something like *no promise you it won't sound like that* I think turning that into a huge deal that richey didn't like the direction the band was going in is a bit OTT. Wasn't it just played on an acoustic ?

[raven]

Originally Posted by hummingbird

I remember James said Richey thought Kevin Carter sounded like the girl from ipanema when he first played it to him. He responded something like *no promise you it won't sound like that* I think turning that into a huge deal that richey didn't like the direction the band was going in is a bit OTT. Wasn't it just played on an acoustic ?

I wasn't trying to argue that Richey didn't...I think the worries over the music for the lyrics left behind show just how much it was a collaborative effort. As to the direction of the band - clearly Richey wasn't well, clearly his lyrics were continuing on from The Holy Bible and his vision for the band seems to have been to continue in that general field. I don't sense it was any big issue at the time only I can imagine that it would have been hard to go on in that field both musically and also for them, not that it's anyone's place to discuss that, I can just see how they could have locked themselves in until it kind of imploded. But no one can know because as James has said - if only Richey could have been around to see the success made of Kevin Carter and beyond - of If You Tolerate etc....the music doesn't always have to sound like your brain feels.
And, hell, he loved the sound of Small Black Flowers....so

[Routine Builder]

I also get the feeling that Kevin Carter before and after Richey were two different beasts. Considering the way the band tip toes around leftover lyrics for 14 years, I doubt they would have went a direction for the song he would obviously not liked.