Query

[Routine Builder]

Originally Posted by roi

There are plenty of political songs on their recent albums (Golden Platitudes, Auto Intoxication, 30 Year War). Although it's true that they stick to UK politics generally. Ifwhiteamerica.. was an extremely complex lyric about US politics, but by their own admission The Love of Richard Nixon didn't really make its point very well.

As for activism, didn't they support the campaign against closure of libraries in Wales recently, alongside Unison? That's more than most bands manage to do.

True, but what I failed to put forward is that they only really talk about politics in how it effects them or at most Wales. Even with the closure of Cardiff Library, it was limited to an interview or opinion piece. They might play the odd benefit gig but as far as I've seen have never been at the forefront of a movement or cause. The way they discuss politics is personal hence why their most recent political lyrics have strong links to the eighties and the miner's strike. Nicky seems to write about how he feels rather than trying to convince people to take action or feel a certain way. The closest they've come to that recently is Lets Go To War which James himself felt a tad embarrassed about considering how earnest and youthful it is.

Also I feel that Nixon was more of an allegory of how about the band felt about their own history being marred by the whole shaking hands and having dinner with Castro.

[Bryter Layter]

Originally Posted by UEF

They 'talk' politics a lot more than they 'walk' it.

Yep! Spot on! They've always been that way too.

Originally Posted by NasalScarecrow

Let's not forget that Roger Waters... is full of shite.

Yes, yes he is! Don't forget egotistical and a bastard too! As a Syd Barrett fan, I've been programmed to automatically hate every word that comes out of his lying mouth. Son of Stopped, you know what I'm talking about, right?

[hummingbird]

At least they don't shove their opinions down people's throats thinking they know it all like some celebs

[Littlesue]

Originally Posted by hummingbird

At least they don't shove their opinions down people's throats thinking they know it all like some celebs

This!! think I would burn every album if they started doing this, Nicky is borderline occasionally but not too over the top

[sculptureofabloke]

Originally Posted by Routine Builder

I get the impression that after Cuba, the band made a decision never to pronounce statements about international politics ever again. When you have a history including putting Chairman Mao in your idols list, it leaves you with little credibility in defending human rights of others. Plus I think the band respect their fans enough to leave them inform themselves and make up your own mind. I remember James expressing as much in Glasgow 18 months ago after the independence referendum. They don't have the history of activism that allows other bands like SOAD and RATM to comment on these things with any authority. To be honest, I'm OK with that. Thinking carefully about an issue and saying nothing does less damage than polemics spouting endless dogma without any evidence behind their claims.

You've just reminded me of something.. I think it might've been in No Manifesto... James talking about meeting Fidel Castro and saying summat along the lines of when you shake somebody's hand you condone everything they do. I think that's a load of bollocks to be honest but I can understand why he thinks that. We're in a world where, politically, it seems that if you don't like blue you must love red, if you disagree with one thing you must agree with the opposite, if you agree with one person on one or a handful of issues you must agree with them on everything.

Maybe there'd be some kind of minor backlash about the band if they were to speak out on the Israel vs Palestine conflict either way, maybe there'd hardly be a backlash at all with em not being as big as they used to be. Fair point about the history of activism, certainly ties in with the "if you really care wash the feet of a beggar" thing. Then again, I'm not sure how fair, although true, that is. I don't think having and expressing a political opinion is a privilege that ought to be earned, politicians are often too eager to stick the boot in or discourage people who aren't politicians to express their opinions - they're invalid, it's not their place.

Which brings us onto this..

Originally Posted by hummingbird

At least they don't shove their opinions down people's throats thinking they know it all like some celebs

You know what, I'd much rather have celebrities shoving their opinions down our throats than politicians.

[Donkey]

Originally Posted by NasalScarecrow

Let's not forget that Roger Waters, although a good songwriter, is full of shite.

I agree 100%, just I don't think he is that good songwriter. And talking about music he is a horrible musician and even worse singer. On the other hand when you want to experience someone's pure ego singing, there is no better choice. Sadly majority of his live singing is playback.

See, I like the guy :-)

[raven]

Originally Posted by sculptureofabloke

You've just reminded me of something.. I think it might've been in No Manifesto... James talking about meeting Fidel Castro and saying summat along the lines of when you shake somebody's hand you condone everything they do. I think that's a load of bollocks to be honest but I can understand why he thinks that. We're in a world where, politically, it seems that if you don't like blue you must love red, if you disagree with one thing you must agree with the opposite, if you agree with one person on one or a handful of issues you must agree with them on everything.

Maybe there'd be some kind of minor backlash about the band if they were to speak out on the Israel vs Palestine conflict either way, maybe there'd hardly be a backlash at all with em not being as big as they used to be. Fair point about the history of activism, certainly ties in with the "if you really care wash the feet of a beggar" thing. Then again, I'm not sure how fair, although true, that is. I don't think having and expressing a political opinion is a privilege that ought to be earned, politicians are often too eager to stick the boot in or discourage people who aren't politicians to express their opinions - they're invalid, it's not their place.

Which brings us onto this..



You know what, I'd much rather have celebrities shoving their opinions down our throats than politicians.

Come now. Tom Cruise must occasionally wish he'd never expressed his opinions. As do the rest of us no?

A handshake can be incredibly symbolic. Though on your more general point it is very difficult for celebrities or people in the public eye to express an opinion that won't then lead to them being painted as pro this and so anti that ie pro-Palestine and so anti-Israel ...even if that's a most unreasonable assumption...and sure the media can spin it that way and set them up and if called to discuss their opinions further - which they won't be because the press won't want to hear it but if they were many would probably tie themselves in knots because like most of us they have a general idea of what's going on but not much of one That's why so many celebs will quickly latch on to charitable causes - can't be criticised there and who doesn't want to stop world poverty that sounds good - but avoid the politics stuff. Unless they're Bono (hasn't put me off listening to U2 though....love them) or Bob....and I love Bob even when I don't agree....I'd love a long shout with him anytime.

I know nothing about Roger Waters (what? I live in a burrow) but he was talking about the US....context is everything and I imagine Israel is a touchy subject


I don't think the Manics have ever been a band to tell you what to think only one to encourage you to think.

[roi]

Originally Posted by Routine Builder

Also I feel that Nixon was more of an allegory of how about the band felt about their own history being marred by the whole shaking hands and having dinner with Castro.

Yeah perhaps, I was just thinking of the bit in No Manifesto where James pretends to punch himself in the face over The Love of Richard Nixon, "argh, what were we thinking", etc.

[sculptureofabloke]

Originally Posted by raven

Come now. Tom Cruise must occasionally wish he'd never expressed his opinions. As do the rest of us no?

Course, but somehow politicians rarely do and I'd take a hundred Tom Cruises or even fucking Tyson Furys over a Jeremy Hunt or Iain Duncan Smith.

Originally Posted by raven

A handshake can be incredibly symbolic. Though on your more general point it is very difficult for celebrities or people in the public eye to express an opinion that won't then lead to them being painted as pro this and so anti that ie pro-Palestine and so anti-Israel ...even if that's a most unreasonable assumption...and sure the media can spin it that way and set them up and if called to discuss their opinions further - which they won't be because the press won't want to hear it but if they were many would probably tie themselves in knots because like most of us they have a general idea of what's going on but not much of one That's why so many celebs will quickly latch on to charitable causes - can't be criticised there and who doesn't want to stop world poverty that sounds good - but avoid the politics stuff. Unless they're Bono (hasn't put me off listening to U2 though....love them) or Bob....and I love Bob even when I don't agree....I'd love a long shout with him anytime.

A handshake can be incredibly symbolic yes, but that's all, everyone except the people shaking hands attach their own meaning to it. Yeah, it is difficult for celebrities to air opinions touching on areas like these, they're never as non-stick as politicians despite often being so much more relatable. And like with all the Russell Brand stuff last year - he never stood a chance really, did he? Course he was never going to be taken seriously (or maybe the attacks on him demonstrate that he was taken seriously?), he's just a comedian, actor, writer, he's not been to Eton, he's not versed in the Westminster way and to be given any respect or credence in this political system and the media, you need to be. Personally, I think we need to get rid of the Westminster way, it's fucked.

Originally Posted by raven

I don't think the Manics have ever been a band to tell you what to think only one to encourage you to think.

Yeah, I agree. I'm not sure whether in the early days when they were referencing this band, that film, this book etc they were expecting fans to go out and discover them all but a lot bloody do don't they? I even ended up going to Sylvia Plath's grave the other week.

[raven]

Originally Posted by sculptureofabloke

A handshake can be incredibly symbolic yes, but that's all, everyone except the people shaking hands attach their own meaning to it. Yeah, it is difficult for celebrities to air opinions touching on areas like these, they're never as non-stick as politicians despite often being so much more relatable. And like with all the Russell Brand stuff last year - he never stood a chance really, did he? Course he was never going to be taken seriously (or maybe the attacks on him demonstrate that he was taken seriously?), he's just a comedian, actor, writer, he's not been to Eton, he's not versed in the Westminster way and to be given any respect or credence in this political system and the media, you need to be. Personally, I think we need to get rid of the Westminster way, it's fucked.

Maybe it depends on context. A lot of comedy's political and comedians aren't generally vilified for it but then they're not usually telling people what to support/not support.....Brand had the honour of being loathed by many anyway but he went and told people not to bother voting - the backlash was ridiculous and also assumed that he had the power to stop people voting just because he said so - maybe they'd go vote just cos he said don't in that case. I think he too only wanted to get people more engaged but his reputation did for him. Mark Thomas has been trying to get people more engaged and see 'politics' as more than just voting for years but he doesn't attract the same attention albeit no one would say he wasn't knowledgeable

Originally Posted by sculptureofabloke

Yeah, I agree. I'm not sure whether in the early days when they were referencing this band, that film, this book etc they were expecting fans to go out and discover them all but a lot bloody do don't they? I even ended up going to Sylvia Plath's grave the other week.

It's lovely and quiet up there (well graveyards are known for that) but it hasn't become a tourist hotspot like Bronte country just down the road. Might be summat to do with the big hill. I love all that area in and around Hebden Bridge - good walking country (good for swimming since Christmas too)

[sculptureofabloke]

Originally Posted by raven

Maybe it depends on context. A lot of comedy's political and comedians aren't generally vilified for it but then they're not usually telling people what to support/not support.....Brand had the honour of being loathed by many anyway but he went and told people not to bother voting - the backlash was ridiculous and also assumed that he had the power to stop people voting just because he said so - maybe they'd go vote just cos he said don't in that case. I think he too only wanted to get people more engaged but his reputation did for him. Mark Thomas has been trying to get people more engaged and see 'politics' as more than just voting for years but he doesn't attract the same attention albeit no one would say he wasn't knowledgeable

Suppose the difference there is when this comedian or that struts around a stage talking about the ridiculousness of this policy or that it's primarily a joke. When you're interviewed by Jeremy Paxman, on the other hand... Whether he meant what he was saying at the time about not voting and he changed his mind when he came out in support of Ed Miliband, or whether he never meant what he was saying to Paxman and he just wanted a reaction, I don't know. Wouldn't surprise me either way. Course, if he had changed his mind.. woah, you can't change your mind, that's the biggest crime in Westminster politics. Never change your mind or say you're wrong. I'm presuming somewhere amidst Brand's ranting he mentioned corruption in politics. Did anyone have the nerve to say oh you're wrong, or did they just say oh you're a twat?

Course the attacks on Russell Brand were pretty extensive and the kind of attacks that wound me up most were the ones going on about how he hasn't got a clue what he's on about. Hang on, we've got a Chancellor without a clue about economics, we've got a Health Secretary without a clue about health care and so on, and so on, and so on... But that's acceptable. The sheer snobbery of Westminster sickens me to the core. It doesn't matter how often politicians are proven to be liars, how often or how abundantly clear their conflicts of interests are. It doesn't even matter how many professionals know better than politicians - they can tell us politics is everything then tell doctors, teachers, bloody comedians to keep out of politics. Nobody else has a right, except fucking scumbag politicians...

Originally Posted by raven

It's lovely and quiet up there (well graveyards are known for that) but it hasn't become a tourist hotspot like Bronte country just down the road. Might be summat to do with the big hill. I love all that area in and around Hebden Bridge - good walking country (good for swimming since Christmas too)

It is, I loved it. Was snowy when we went, but just after the floods too. It was heart warming seeing in all the empty shops, signs in the windows thanking the community for helping them out and saying they'll be back.

Have you seen Shed Your Tears And Walk Away? That'll fuck up your heart strings...

[Donkey]

Originally Posted by NasalScarecrow

I'm inclined to agree with some of that. Before this descends into a Dave vs. Rog debate (there are enough forums online dedicated to that ), I really love some of his songs and some of them are complete wank. I don't think much of his whining voice but it suits stuff like In the Flesh? and Welcome to the Machine. But yes, an egotistical gobshite otherwise.

Oh mate, you made my day.

You are right, Dave vs. Rog debate is useless. For me the winners are Syd and Rick.
I also like some of Waters's songs, yes, Welcome to the Machine is one of them. Or Cymbaline. I dislike much more songs of his though. The whole Final Cut for example. Yes, there are songs in which is his voice appropriate, but there are maybe...2 or 3, all others would be much better with Dave or Rick. Or with noone. And live he shouldn't sing at all, he can't keep the note.

But....

Welcome to the Machine was sung brilliantly.... By David Gilmour. Waters sings only the low backing voc.

[raven]

Originally Posted by sculptureofabloke

Suppose the difference there is when this comedian or that struts around a stage talking about the ridiculousness of this policy or that it's primarily a joke. When you're interviewed by Jeremy Paxman, on the other hand... Whether he meant what he was saying at the time about not voting and he changed his mind when he came out in support of Ed Miliband, or whether he never meant what he was saying to Paxman and he just wanted a reaction, I don't know. Wouldn't surprise me either way. Course, if he had changed his mind.. woah, you can't change your mind, that's the biggest crime in Westminster politics. Never change your mind or say you're wrong. I'm presuming somewhere amidst Brand's ranting he mentioned corruption in politics. Did anyone have the nerve to say oh you're wrong, or did they just say oh you're a twat?

Course the attacks on Russell Brand were pretty extensive and the kind of attacks that wound me up most were the ones going on about how he hasn't got a clue what he's on about. Hang on, we've got a Chancellor without a clue about economics, we've got a Health Secretary without a clue about health care and so on, and so on, and so on... But that's acceptable. The sheer snobbery of Westminster sickens me to the core. It doesn't matter how often politicians are proven to be liars, how often or how abundantly clear their conflicts of interests are. It doesn't even matter how many professionals know better than politicians - they can tell us politics is everything then tell doctors, teachers, bloody comedians to keep out of politics. Nobody else has a right, except fucking scumbag politicians...

The forever ongoing one-sided discussions between the BMA/junior doctors and Jeremy Hunt illustrates your point rather well

Originally Posted by sculptureofabloke

It is, I loved it. Was snowy when we went, but just after the floods too. It was heart warming seeing in all the empty shops, signs in the windows thanking the community for helping them out and saying they'll be back.

Have you seen Shed Your Tears And Walk Away? That'll fuck up your heart strings...

Well they don't call it Happy Valley for nothing I haven't seen Shed Your Tears....but I'll look out for that. I don't think it is the full picture to be fair to the town. I think it was and still is a 'traditional working class' town which has become - what's the word ' gentrified? or something....lots of people have moved in and there's a very hippy/green vibe going on but they are rather middle class and the house prices are mental....I think the problems such as they are are common to many towns where the work has gone but maybe Hebden gets remarked upon because it's more hidden not intentionally hidden just the way it's become a popular place to live and attracts tourists and is incredibly picturesque but yeah sit in the park for a bit and meet the cider drinkers (yep I'm third bench on the left, ha....It's a lovely park by the way n I always feel safe just to stress just in case).....it's thriving in many ways but there are limited job opportunities....it's very linked up by rail though which is another reason why it's become so popular - commuter town. Anyways it's kept it's down to earthiness and there's so much gorgeous countryside all around - Hardcastle Craggs, Crimsworth Dean....and you can walk along the canal to Tod ...maybe to Liverpool...no see my geography's worrying for someone who likes to walk off a lot

Here's hoping the pubs'll be dried out so to speak soon

[sculptureofabloke]

Originally Posted by raven

Well they don't call it Happy Valley for nothing I haven't seen Shed Your Tears....but I'll look out for that. I don't think it is the full picture to be fair to the town. I think it was and still is a 'traditional working class' town which has become - what's the word ' gentrified? or something....lots of people have moved in and there's a very hippy/green vibe going on but they are rather middle class and the house prices are mental....I think the problems such as they are are common to many towns where the work has gone but maybe Hebden gets remarked upon because it's more hidden not intentionally hidden just the way it's become a popular place to live and attracts tourists and is incredibly picturesque but yeah sit in the park for a bit and meet the cider drinkers (yep I'm third bench on the left, ha....It's a lovely park by the way n I always feel safe just to stress just in case).....it's thriving in many ways but there are limited job opportunities....it's very linked up by rail though which is another reason why it's become so popular - commuter town. Anyways it's kept it's down to earthiness and there's so much gorgeous countryside all around - Hardcastle Craggs, Crimsworth Dean....and you can walk along the canal to Tod ...maybe to Liverpool...no see my geography's worrying for someone who likes to walk off a lot

Here's hoping the pubs'll be dried out so to speak soon

One of the locals in the documentary refers to Hebden Bridge as "a drug town with a tourist problem", and I can kinda see where he was coming from.. well, as much as I can without having seen the place before gentrification... He didn't say it in a "local town for local people" way or owt like that, it was almost a matter of fact resigned way, as if they've lost their identity or summat. Or maybe I'm just projecting too much. Course the documentary only gives their side of things really, you don't see much of the bohemian types the place has attracted but it's worth a watch anyway.

Loved it there for a walk anyway, happy to go anywhere really in that area. Spoilt for choice round here to be fair.

[raven]

Originally Posted by sculptureofabloke

One of the locals in the documentary refers to Hebden Bridge as "a drug town with a tourist problem", and I can kinda see where he was coming from.. well, as much as I can without having seen the place before gentrification... He didn't say it in a "local town for local people" way or owt like that, it was almost a matter of fact resigned way, as if they've lost their identity or summat. Or maybe I'm just projecting too much. Course the documentary only gives their side of things really, you don't see much of the bohemian types the place has attracted but it's worth a watch anyway.

Loved it there for a walk anyway, happy to go anywhere really in that area. Spoilt for choice round here to be fair.

Happy in the valley

I don't remember it back before gentrification (I like that word) a lot won't as it going back to the 70s I think I heard it was that the hippy types moved in when house prices were cheap (certainly don't remember times when houses were cheap) and through the 80's it became a tourist attraction ... I guess by drug town with a tourist problem he doesn't mean that he feels his identity's threatened just that as the town begins to work on its image to attract more tourists....which a lot of the independent shops etc rely on....the problems that are less attractive will go ignored maybe more so than in other areas despite the relative affluence because image becomes the priority. It's maybe ironic that a place famous for its tolerance....attracting not just the hippy middle classes (do i sound like I have a problem wi that?) but a large gay/lesbian community as well maybe fails to fully address some of the problems in the town maybe it's an attitude of each to their own which is a fine attitude if your hippy lifestyle choices are exactly that - choices - but anyways. Having said all that I love the place. Need a lottery win to live there

If the Manics write about these valleys all of this becomes relevant to the actual thread