Mao

[Tim]

Why is it that conservatives seem to think that those on the left are all chairman mao wannabes because they dare to hope for a society that takes care of everyone? I wouldn't say the last 10 years of tory government have been inherently evil because calling it evil absolves them of responsibility but... a callous disregard for the poor, elderly, infirm, BAME and LGBTQ+ communities? Absolutely!

[raven]

Originally Posted by cameron33

Can’t speak for Nicky Wire, but a lot of people have a fairly simplistic/Western lens take on Mao. Yes undoubtedly some Mao’s policies, in some regions, exacerbated the poverty there. But China was a very, very poor country at the time, and there were natural disasters during those years. And if you actually compare the stats with, say, India at that time, some of China’s life expectancy/infant mortality stats improved post famine years. Further, may of the sky high estimates of deaths during the Great Famine are essentially based on falling population. Well, that’s one way to do it, but strange not to factor in how you would expect birth rates to drop rapidly during a terrible famine. Having more children is the last thing people would be doing.

Now, more generally, Mao is considered 70% good/30% bad by today’s China. If anything, he is far more revered by the very old 70+ generation who actually lived through his rule than by everyone else in modern China. Though generally speaking he is still a hero to more than a billion people. Not everything under Mao was bad, and there were big improvements in many areas. For a start, life expectancy improved from 40 years old when he became leader to just over 60 years old in 1976. By comparison, India went from approx 35 years to 50 years in the same period. Ok, this is straight from Wikipedia now:

“A controversial figure, Mao is regarded as one of the most important and influential individuals in modern world history. He is also known as a political intellect, theorist, military strategist, poet, and visionary. During Mao's era, China was involved in the Korean War, the Sino-Soviet split, the Vietnam War, and the rise of Khmer Rouge; in particular, in 1972, Mao welcomed U.S. President Richard Nixon in Beijing, signalling the start of a policy of opening China to the world. Supporters credit him with driving imperialism out of China, modernising the nation and building it into a world power, promoting the status of women, improving education and health care, as well as increasing life expectancy of average Chinese.

Conversely, his regime has been called autocratic and totalitarian, and condemned for bringing about mass repression and destroying religious and cultural artifacts and sites. It was additionally responsible for vast numbers of deaths with estimates ranging from 40 to 80 million victims through starvation, persecution, prison labour and mass executions”

So, yeah I wouldn’t nominate him for the Nobel peace prize, but the Mao = Hitler/
Pol Pot line largely peddled in the West is, well, a bit dumb. By the standards of a rich 21st century European his rule was full of a fair amount of awful shit, but he ruled a poverty stricken China in 1950, coming right off the back of a hundred years of imperial plunder, not the UK in 2020.

Originally Posted by Routine Builder

That's some nice hand waving of the deaths of 40 + million people.



And what would it be without a state controlled media and a police state where dissent is actively punished? I guess those folk in Hong Kong are worried about nothing, they just haven't had the right education yet.



What imperial powers did in China does not excuse what Mao did afterwards. He owns that, both the good and the bad. He is both the architect and the butcher. (Maybe Faster is partially about Mao, not completely out considering the artwork for the single)

There are few people in history who are responsible for the deaths of over 40 million people, it is not completely unfair to draw comparisons between such folk.

Think there's been a lot of selective quipping from Wiki in Cameron's post...or is it the Wire?

George Orwell always gets overlooked when people criticise the left but surely arguing that a man who caused the death and suffering of millions should be given a nod for increasing life expectancy is a damn perfect definition of Newspeak

He is up there amongst the Hitler's and Stalin's and Pol Pots of history absolutely

And the 'support' ...... the fundamental problem with dictatorships and indeed for dictators is that they can never be sure of it...everyone lies...the whole of society becomes a lie...survival ends up depending on it so....

Still, Mao was apparently extremely good at slogans....now...that does that ring a bell regarding any bands? Ha

I've never really understood this part of Nicky...and never sure if he does it to push buttons or just doesn't think....dictators can be interesting but to be interested isn't the same as admiring.......but of course some things you need to hear rather than read on a page cos surely he wasn't seriously dismissing 45 million deaths...Gawd...cheeky grin must have been in place

Richey seemed to consider words more...but I know someone will find some quote where he said all labrapoodles should be shot or something to prove me wrong....

Hang on...wasn't it why the equally attractive Stalin that said 'The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic'.....think Marilyn Manson said it too...but Stalin was first

[Routine Builder]

Ironically, I'm the only one here who has Mao in their signature albeit in ghost form and next to Abraham Lincoln...

[Marat Sar]

Mao was all right and you guys are bourgeois stooges

[raven]

Because baby we are all bourgeois now

[rosetree]

Originally Posted by River Boy

It's the dangerous leftie habit that so many fall for if they have a blinkered view of Conservativism being evil, rather than looking for a more grounded truth. They encounter all the passion of left-wing ideology and assume it must be some wonderful heavenly idea.

Usually, like with Nicky, it eventually dawns on them that the likes of Mao and Stalin (whose name he used to spray-paint on walls) were at least as bad as Hitler and killed more people. Amazingly though there's still people who cling to this extreme left-wing ideology as begin something to aspire to. Recently I've been detecting growing Communist voices trying to make a claim for Marxist teachings being relevant again because technology can now allow us to achieve Communist ideals more effectively without human error. Basically looking to take human judgement out of governing.

Utter bollocks!

I don't blame Nicky for growing up under Thatcherism and choosing something idealistic, like a lot of young minds do, but it would be nice if more artists, musicians, etc., were more vocal about the nonsense of left-wing extremism, rather than simply going for the Tories all the time because they just present a much easier target.

Originally Posted by River Boy

It's the dangerous leftie habit that so many fall for if they have a blinkered view of Conservativism being evil, rather than looking for a more grounded truth. They encounter all the passion of left-wing ideology and assume it must be some wonderful heavenly idea.



Usually, like with Nicky, it eventually dawns on them that the likes of Mao and Stalin (whose name he used to spray-paint on walls) were at least as bad as Hitler and killed more people. Amazingly though there's still people who cling to this extreme left-wing ideology as begin something to aspire to. Recently I've been detecting growing Communist voices trying to make a claim for Marxist teachings being relevant again because technology can now allow us to achieve Communist ideals more effectively without human error. Basically looking to take human judgement out of governing.

Utter bollocks!


I don't blame Nicky for growing up under Thatcherism and choosing something idealistic, like a lot of young minds do, but it would be nice if more artists, musicians, etc., were more vocal about the nonsense of left-wing extremism, rather than simply going for the Tories all the time because they just present a much easier target.

I always think Nicky's comments and quotes have a sense of irony attached and more so in the early songs. As an artist rather than choosing idealistically, he naturally has an opinion about the tories? I don't think that constitutes to write and sing about extremism. Perhaps more about government truths broken algorithms, tory ideology. I hope the next album includes some of those.

[River Boy]

Originally Posted by rosetree

I always think Nicky's comments and quotes have a sense of irony attached and more so in the early songs. As an artist rather than choosing idealistically, he naturally has an opinion about the tories? I don't think that constitutes to write and sing about extremism. Perhaps more about government truths broken algorithms, tory ideology. I hope the next album includes some of those.

I don't think he writes or sings about extremism or even supports it, it's just that I'd be interested to see him direct his skills at tearing it apart as he has at Thatcherism so many times.

There's nothing wrong with having a broad pallot. The Pythons were mostly left-wing as far as I can tell but they were still the ones who came up with the classic 'Judean People's Front' scene, which pretty much sums up the left-wing stupidity which means that the right are always the more united even though it draws less support.

[rosetree]

Originally Posted by River Boy

I don't think he writes or sings about extremism or even supports it, it's just that I'd be interested to see him direct his skills at tearing it apart as he has at Thatcherism so many times.

There's nothing wrong with having a broad pallot. The Pythons were mostly left-wing as far as I can tell but they were still the ones who came up with the classic 'Judean People's Front' scene, which pretty much sums up the left-wing stupidity which means that the right are always the more united even though it draws less support.

He doesn't write about or support extremism.Though I like that he speaks his mind and I'm glad he's more in touch with reality the government than it's humourists, monty pythons those it doesn't affect. I think Nicky could articulate events like James has enlightened in his beautiful album.

[raven]

Originally Posted by River Boy

I don't think he writes or sings about extremism or even supports it, it's just that I'd be interested to see him direct his skills at tearing it apart as he has at Thatcherism so many times.

There's nothing wrong with having a broad pallot. The Pythons were mostly left-wing as far as I can tell but they were still the ones who came up with the classic 'Judean People's Front' scene, which pretty much sums up the left-wing stupidity which means that the right are always the more united even though it draws less support.

Interesting point about the right being more united although they have less overall support. I'm not sure it's down to the left arguing over the likes of Mao, Stalin, Israel .... although none of that helps....but it's surely far more to do with the right-wing holding the majority of the positions of power and influence and wanting to protect that position that comes largely from what they happened to be born into...they aren't the majority but they hold the majority of the wealth. They too have their problems with extremism and far right groups and though they tend to be more vocal about drawing a line I think they also pander to it (the obvious example being some of the language Boris has used.....he shrugs things off as 'jokes' etc....and people argue over whether he as a person is racist but it's besides the point really because whether he is or not he clearly recognises there are many who hold such views who would lend him a vote being not a million miles away in their individualistic, self centred view of the universe revolving around them and that's dangerous behaviour)

Also songs like Of Walking Abortion but particularly Mausoleum, Intense Humming of Evil...are not specifically taking on what you meant but do suggest the band aren't likely to have much time for the anti-semitic idiocy that overshadowed elements of Corbyn's support

[cameron33]

The famine is a complex topic, and very few people have the educational background or will to give it the needed time. And of those of course plenty still come into the topic with their conclusions ready made. But yes, Mao's poor governance was undoubtedly a contributing factor, but so too were Western and Soviet sanctions, historically atrocious weather (leading to the worst drought for nearly a century), and the fact that China was then still a dirt poor country unable at the best of times to cope with a poor harvest.

Seems to me plenty want to assign Mao full responsibility for the famine, but none of the responsibility for, say, the huge rise in life expectancy (eg, a 15 year improvement in the years 1965-75) not replicated at all in other developing countries like India. Or for the massive improvement in literacy. Undoubtedly Mao carries a big portion of blame for poor handling of the crisis brought on by a sudden massive drought, but thats quite different to being Hitler, Stalin or Pol pot or whatever.

As an aside and general note, I find it somewhat distasteful the current trend of Westerners to tell the majority of Chinese people that they are "wrong" about Mao and "wrong" about how well their country is doing (generally speaking) under their current government. Critique by all means, but let's stop in the West claiming absolute objectivity in our views on China and, essentially, telling Chinese people how wrong they are to feel content with their lives and that they ought to be doing things our way. I spent ten years in China at the start of the millennium , and the thing people hated more than anything, politically speaking, is Westerner preaching and hypocrisy.

[Routine Builder]

No one here is telling the Chinese Jack shit. However what you're doing is attempting to make out that the Chinese are a monolith who conform to your idealised view of communism where any abuse of power is handwaved away as a price worth paying. The price is always worth paying when you're not the one paying for it Mao is neither a paragon nor a demon, however he is responsible. He may not have been responsible for the draught but he was damn responsible for the agricultural policies that meant it resulted in a deep famine. Oh in case you think I have western rose tinted sunglasses, it's not that different to the Irish famine. The British didn't create the potato blight but it was British policies that meant the Irish didn't have anything else to eat while most of the other food was exported back to Britain. You want to say it was worth it, fine you can but instead of telling us, do yourself a favour and chat to some folk in Hong Kong or the millions of Chinese emigrates who fled the famine and political oppression.

The famine is a complex topic but you know what I have two bachelor degrees and two masters degrees. None of which I need to recognise you're the kind of person who usually thinks they're the smartest person in the room.

[cameron33]

“No one here is telling the Chinese Jack shit“

Clearly you are not, but I was referring more to the general trend in Western MSM in recent months which is intent on painting China as the new “evil empire”/ next great threat to world peace. Quite possibly laying the propaganda ground work for a major conflict.

As far as your other points, I agree he takes responsibility for poor governance to try to effectively counter the famine, though for the reasons I laid out earlier comparing him to Stalin/Hitler is absurd. The number of deaths was so high (whatever the actual figure - the larger estimates are extremely suspect as they rely entirely on falling birthrate) because the famine hit an already severely impoverished and famine prone country with a massive population. Yes, the governance was poor but it was not intentionally so, and Mao does not take sole responsibility for the country being so impoverished and unable to respond at that moment in time. its the difference between an underqualified doctor failing to save a man bleeding from a stab wound vs. another man who goes out looking for people to stab. For me they do not seem comparable.

My point is simply that throwing Mao in with Hitler etc is ludicrous (versus your ‘ not that much of a stretch to include Mao alongside Hitler as 40 million died’) - not that Mao was a decent man or wise leader all told. Indeed you yourself correctly point out the Irish famine, and what about the Bengal famine, etc. Both certainly absolutely tragic and arguably barbaric politically motivated acts ... but comparing the perpetrators to Hitler?


“The famine is a complex topic but you know what I have two bachelor degrees and two masters degrees. None of which I need to recognise you're the kind of person who usually thinks they're the smartest person in the room.”

Hmm, I think you’re getting carried away here and going into personal abuse which isn’t really called for. Anyway, given the tone of your previous response I can’t see this being a good natured debate, so having laid out my argument I’ll leave it there as I don’t come here for negative vibes.

[cameron33]

For the record I have no “idealized view of Communism”. I think it is a terribly flawed ideology and have no time for it at all. However, I just don’t subscribe every important historical event that happens under a certain system as directly/inevitably caused by it. Likewise I don’t blame the democratic system for giving the world Hitler and nearly exterminating an entire people. There are dozens of other factors to consider - geography, poverty, domestic conflict, external threats, historical/political state of play etc, etc.

[Son of Stopped]

And if you go raging in a thread about Mao
Don't forget it was created by a troll!

(Seriously though, they make a post saying they don't even listen to the band anymore. And then she makes a thread like this. Yeah. Troll.)

[River Boy]

Originally Posted by Routine Builder

The famine is a complex topic but you know what I have two bachelor degrees and two masters degrees.

Why would you need 2 of them? Would you do your GCSEs twice?