PLEASE HELP THE MANICS

[The Gutless Wonder]

They still buy the rubbish in the first place before swiftly moving on to something else. The decent stuff occasionally gets through, I'll give them that.

[Dean V]

Originally Posted by The Gutless Wonder

They still buy the rubbish in the first place before swiftly moving on to something else. The decent stuff occasionally gets through, I'll give them that.

I don't know, we all participate in what charts when we buy albums and singles. I myself think charts do not matter a toss, but bands and artists on large labels obviously don't have that luxury.

I honestly think if the Manics just suddenly grew some balls in response to public favour they'd do a lot better; by just going "wait, why don't we just write songs and ignore outside opinions and worries?" given how well that worked on Journal For Plague Lovers and stuff like Lifeblood (in my opinion, naturally) I'd have a higher opinion of them creatively I think. Same as I have opinion wise for all bands I like really.

[The Gutless Wonder]

The Manics are way too analytical. That's their problem.

[Mr.Selfdestruct]

I have helped the manics enough by spending enough money on them over the years.

[Bryter Layter]

Originally Posted by Dean V

I honestly think if the Manics just suddenly grew some balls in response to public favour they'd do a lot better; by just going "wait, why don't we just write songs and ignore outside opinions and worries?" given how well that worked on Journal For Plague Lovers and stuff like Lifeblood (in my opinion, naturally) I'd have a higher opinion of them creatively I think. Same as I have opinion wise for all bands I like really.

For the most part, I agree with everything you've written here except one point. I don't think any artist should allow their work to be influenced by public opinion. I think you may have a point when it comes to PFAYM in some respects because it was made quite clear from the get go that they were trying to appeal to the masses, but in terms of how they approach the bulk of their work, I don't think as musicians and songwriters they have any obligation to make music that their fans demand. It's their vision not ours. If what comes out of their heads doesn't appeal to certain members of their fanbase, tough! Move on and find another band that does appeal to your taste in music. Integrity isn't compatible with public persuasion. They may be signed to a large record label which means that there is a certain level of contractual obligation involved in makin an effor to shift album/singles units, but this still doesn't mean they have to be slaves to their fans, including me, when it comes to their creativity. I personally could never respect them as a band if they allowed others to tell them how their music should sound.

Btw Dean, welcome back! Nice to see you in these parts again.

[Bryter Layter]

I will say however that I do loose a great deal of respect for the Manics everytime I hear them dissing albums like LB, KYE, TIMT and even GATS for what seems like very superficial reasons. Even if they no longer have the same musical interests they had when they made these albums, I think it's really sad that they don't seem capable of defending those albums. Kind of depressing actually.

[Dean V]

Originally Posted by TheGreatPretender

For the most part, I agree with everything you've written here except one point. I don't think any artist should allow their work to be influenced by public opinion. I think you may have a point when it comes to PFAYM in some respects because it was made quite clear from the get go that they were trying to appeal to the masses, but in terms of how they approach the bulk of their work, I don't think as musicians and songwriters they have any obligation to make music that their fans demand. It's their vision not ours. If what comes out of their heads doesn't appeal to certain members of their fanbase, tough! Move on and find another band that does appeal to your taste in music. Integrity isn't compatible with public persuasion. They may be signed to a large record label which means that there is a certain level of contractual obligation involved in makin an effor to shift album/singles units, but this still doesn't mean they have to be slaves to their fans, including me, when it comes to their creativity. I personally could never respect them as a band if they allowed others to tell them how their music should sound.

Btw Dean, welcome back! Nice to see you in these parts again.

I agree with you there as well. I did take the view that they went for string riddled and try-hard-epic sound styles in this album due to their mentioning of needing to be loved by the public again (despite JFPL selling shitloads...but anyway) but true, that is clouding my vision over what the Manics may want to do anyway.

Cheers as well

[Kieslowski]

Originally Posted by wireintheblood

I think KOL was picked up by chavs everywhere. Its what the Manics need (or dont need depending on yr viewpoint ) a massive crossover song, possibly single only non album track, that appeals to the MASSES. And I dont see it coming anytime soon

I'm certainly in the "don't need" camp. They've made enough money, they don't need to keep vying for the general public's attention. They should just concentrate on making music as an art-form rather than as a product. They might end up playing slightly smaller venues, but at least the crowds will enjoy every song, and not just ADFL and YSTSFMH.

Originally Posted by Dean V

The public (which all of us are included in)

I'm not in the public! I'm special (my mummykins told me so).

Originally Posted by TheGreatPretender

For the most part, I agree with everything you've written here except one point. I don't think any artist should allow their work to be influenced by public opinion. I think you may have a point when it comes to PFAYM in some respects because it was made quite clear from the get go that they were trying to appeal to the masses, but in terms of how they approach the bulk of their work, I don't think as musicians and songwriters they have any obligation to make music that their fans demand. It's their vision not ours. If what comes out of their heads doesn't appeal to certain members of their fanbase, tough! Move on and find another band that does appeal to your taste in music. Integrity isn't compatible with public persuasion. They may be signed to a large record label which means that there is a certain level of contractual obligation involved in makin an effor to shift album/singles units, but this still doesn't mean they have to be slaves to their fans, including me, when it comes to their creativity. I personally could never respect them as a band if they allowed others to tell them how their music should sound.

I don't think there is any danger of them being slaves to their fans, and I don't think that is even what their true fans would want anyway. Their fans are the people who like albums like KYE and Lifeblood, which the general public largely rejected. Their fans are also the people who don't like some of their albums, but keep coming back for more because they have faith in the band overall. They're the people who have the patience to allow the band to do what they want and stick by them even when they make mistakes. These aren't the people the band are slaves to though - they're slaves to the people who don't even like them as a band, the people who see them as the band that made this album that they quite like a few tunes from. They pander to what they perceive to be the needs of these people, and in doing so effectively say "hey, you guys that buy everything we do and come to all our gigs - we don't care about you. We're only interested in these people who only buy the albums we produce that fit their rather narrow views of what music should sound like. These people are more important than you, mainly because we know you'll buy the album anyway so we don't have to try and win your approval, and therefore we won't try." They don't need to win anyone's approval, but if they insist on doing so, then it should be people like us, rather than people who have a mere passing interest in them.

Manics fans are the loving wife who stays at home obediently waiting for the man she loves to come home and give her some attention, while the Manics are the cheating, philandering husband that is always out looking for something "better" (i.e. the fickle general public), but always coming crawling back to the wife, who should know better than to keep accepting him back, even though she knows full well that he's just going to go looking for another woman next time, but stays loyal to him anyway.

Originally Posted by TheGreatPretender

I will say however that I do loose a great deal of respect for the Manics everytime I hear them dissing albums like LB, KYE, TIMT and even GATS for what seems like very superficial reasons. Even if they no longer have the same musical interests they had when they made these albums, I think it's really sad that they don't seem capable of defending those albums. Kind of depressing actually.

Yes, it's very depressing. I can forgive them when they do it as far as GATS is concerned, because I think there is a general feeling that it was a record they thought the record company wanted them to make, so when they look back at it, it reminds them of a time when they bowed in to record label pressure and did what someone else wanted, rather than what (they think) they wanted to do.

I think they're slowly coming to realise that KYE was a good album after all, or at least Nicky is. Hopefully in the not-too-distant future they'll make their peace with these albums and just appreciate that they are all a part of their history and that no amount of dissing will change that.

I'm not holding my breath, like

[jarvizcocker]

Originally Posted by TheGreatPretender

I will say however that I do loose a great deal of respect for the Manics everytime I hear them dissing albums like LB, KYE, TIMT and even GATS for what seems like very superficial reasons. Even if they no longer have the same musical interests they had when they made these albums, I think it's really sad that they don't seem capable of defending those albums. Kind of depressing actually.

yeah, i agree. especially about lifeblood.