Know Your Enemy 20 scheduled for 2021 release - Page 91 - Forever Delayed

Suicide Aldi · #**1351** 19-09-2022, 14:02

As for the Cuba debarcle, I always saw it of less of an endorsment and mire of offering an alternatvie viewpoint. In the channel 4 documentry Sean mentions it somthing along the lines of it being better than all that Tibetan Freedom Concert rubbish. I think the band, and specifically Nicky saw those concerts as being less about caring about actual Tibetan freedom and more about pushing an Americanised world view, with the west acting as champion for all that is good and pure, while ignoring the issues caused by its own decidance. I think there whole Pro-Cuba, anti US stance was a way of pointing out that hypocrasy.

Or at least thats how they saw it. In reality it looked more like an endorsment of Castros regime, hence why they seem to regret it all somewhat now.

Donkey · #**1352** 19-09-2022, 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suicide Aldi

I thought it was reference to Brian Warner baring his naked ass on stage at a festival, and pulling the cheeks so far apart that you could clear see his poop chute. A poster of it was given away with a magazine and it was a bit of a running joke at the time. Theres a video of Travis playing Glasgows Gig on the Green in 2001, where Fran Healy asks the crowd if they enjoyed Marlyn Manson, and if he got his bottom out this time. He then laughs and says somthing like "I can gaurentee you will never see our arseholes!"

Oh God, oh God :-D

Donkey · #**1353** 19-09-2022, 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Routine Builder

The problem is the foreign policy of the US. Did the people of Iran have a choice when the US organised a coup that toppled the country's only democratically elected government. At the behest of Winston Churchill no less. Democracy for their citizens, not so much for others. The US's reputation abroad would be a lot better if it didn't interfere with the governments of so many countries. And to be honest as we're seeing with Trump, being able to criticize elected leaders and holding them to account are very very different things.

I believe there is definitely a need of broad discussion about US foreign policy. I would only listen, I haven't got much to contribute. :-) But sadly when there is a critical voice, it's always kind of "devil's playground" or "Jews secretly rule the world" or it comes from Russia. And we're back by Manics, songs like Baby Elian or Freedom.of Speech are just like that. For me there is no credibility there, when there is no good will. A good song is All is Vanity. I don't agree with Richey's view of the world but I will always respect it and there is actually something in it, which I can think about. Nicky doesn't provide me with such a thing.

Donkey · #**1354** 19-09-2022, 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suicide Aldi

As for the Cuba debarcle, I always saw it of less of an endorsment and mire of offering an alternatvie viewpoint. In the channel 4 documentry Sean mentions it somthing along the lines of it being better than all that Tibetan Freedom Concert rubbish. I think the band, and specifically Nicky saw those concerts as being less about caring about actual Tibetan freedom and more about pushing an Americanised world view, with the west acting as champion for all that is good and pure, while ignoring the issues caused by its own decidance. I think there whole Pro-Cuba, anti US stance was a way of pointing out that hypocrasy.

Or at least thats how they saw it. In reality it looked more like an endorsment of Castros regime, hence why they seem to regret it all somewhat now.

That's interesting. But if they really meant it like that they only showed, they had no idea how such a regime like Castro's work and what such a Dean Reed act means for it.

I believe Nicky or James once said for a czech magazine, that one motivation for the cuban gig was "a not fullfilled dream of a band that already reached quite a few things" (not exactly sic I am afraid)

But in a documentary I saw one of them described the meeting with Castro and how they were afraid they would never be allowed to leave the country again at one moment. :-D which one was it? Does anyone know?
I am sure guys were very happy to be back in devil' playground's friend UK.

Donkey · #**1355** 19-09-2022, 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bartek Wyre

My thoughts exactly.

Aye, guess I'm unquotable

Must be some glitch in the forum. I usually add quotes to my posts manually, give that a try next time Jakub.

I tried that too!

Look, now it works!!!

Suicide Aldi · #**1356** 19-09-2022, 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donkey

That's interesting. But if they really meant it like that they only showed, they had no idea how such a regime like Castro's work and what such a Dean Reed act means for it.

I believe Nicky or James once said for a czech magazine, that one motivation for the cuban gig was "a not fullfilled dream of a band that already reached quite a few things" (not exactly sic I am afraid)

But in a documentary I saw one of them described the meeting with Castro and how they were afraid they would never be allowed to leave the country again at one moment. :-D which one was it? Does anyone know?
I am sure guys were very happy to be back in devil' playground's friend UK.

I agree with you. I think they thought it was a good idea on paper, and also the idea of co opting soviat iconography probably seemed very "cool" and "punk rock". As well as reacting to the critisism of losing their edge, and selling out around This Is My Truth, they probably convinced themselves it was a good idea. Only to completly crap themselves once they realised what they had gotten into.

Marat Sar · #**1357** 20-09-2022, 00:56

Going to Cuba was cool, Cuba is cool and America is evil. Socialism is good and capitalism is evil shit, everyone knows this, I don't know why there's even a discussion here. Them going there was the coolest thing they ever did, after them everyone and their mom started doing it, from Audioslave to... I think Jay Z did it or something.

They did it when it meant something. Also, it adds a lot to the album that they did it -- not just the Cuba theme (which is great) but you can feel their money's where their mouth is. It's not just consequence free art theatre, they're ready to bear the price for that -- as evidenced by people still, here, 21 years later blaming them of "legitimizing the Castro regime". It would have been stupid if they supported Tibet or something.

What I really wanted to say, though, was: goddamn Sean's drums in the chorus of Door to the River! Such creative and fast playing and so incredibly clear and up front in the mix. I love how the drums are the star of that chorus. The main focal element in the mix. Incredible 3D tom rolls thundering across the stage, dusty and dry.

Vancouver · #**1358** 23-09-2022, 06:53

mail joy in Vancouver today. I love it.

centralscrutiniser · #**1359** 23-09-2022, 07:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marat Sar

Going to Cuba was cool, Cuba is cool and America is evil. Socialism is good and capitalism is evil shit, everyone knows this,

Thanks for clearing that up for us. There was me thinking it was a complex situation, but now you've explained it I see the error of my ways. The executions and human rights abuses just add to the coolness of the Castro regime I suppose.

UEF · #**1360** 23-09-2022, 08:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marat Sar

Going to Cuba was cool, Cuba is cool and America is evil. Socialism is good and capitalism is evil shit, everyone knows this, I don't know why there's even a discussion here

Quote:

Originally Posted by centralscrutiniser

Thanks for clearing that up for us. There was me thinking it was a complex situation, but now you've explained it I see the error of my ways. The executions and human rights abuses just add to the coolness of the Castro regime I suppose.

I had assumed they were being sarcastic and parodying the band's narrative at the time - hard to tell around here, though.

Routine Builder · #**1361** 23-09-2022, 08:36

It's funny that no one every complains that when MSP play the US, they legitimise the US government and all the horrible things that it has done over the years.

centralscrutiniser · #**1362** 23-09-2022, 08:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by UEF

I had assumed they were being sarcastic and parodying the band's narrative at the time - hard to tell around here, though.

Possibly, I stand to be corrected. There doesn't seem to be a lot of room for nuance on this forum.

centralscrutiniser · #**1363** 23-09-2022, 08:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Routine Builder

It's funny that no one every complains that when MSP play the US, they legitimise the US government and all the horrible things that it has done over the years.

Say the same thing about us in Britain. Many countries have done some very shitty stuff over the last however many years. Some countries are a little further down the rabid totalitarian dictatorship road though.

It's one thing playing in a country - they'd probably have come in for a touch of flack if they'd released a video of them fawning over Trump like they did Castro.

Suicide Aldi · #**1364** 23-09-2022, 09:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Routine Builder

It's funny that no one every complains that when MSP play the US, they legitimise the US government and all the horrible things that it has done over the years.

Its not just the playing in Cuba though, it was the shaking hands with and praising of Castro that was the problem. Dont forget people also critisised Noel Gallagher for shaking hands with Tony Blair.

Routine Builder · #**1365** 23-09-2022, 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by centralscrutiniser

It's one thing playing in a country - they'd probably have come in for a touch of flack if they'd released a video of them fawning over Trump like they did Castro.

You do know you're blurring the context right? Castro literally walked into their dressing room uninvited with the press. WTF were the band supposed to do? Lock the doors to the man who led a guerilla overthrow of the previous regime? Give the finger to the face of a man who is allegedly responsible for the deaths of thousands of people, and also an emblem to quite a lot of the people in that crowd that night? Watch the footage and the body language, the band are clearly shitting bricks during the encounter and I'd hardly call it fawning (if you want to see fawning, watch the doc where James just sits and watches a Cuban guitar player for 10 minutes). When the band were invited to a personal audience with Castro at the presidential palace, Nick had a panic attack and the band went home early. That tells you more about what they genuinely feel about Castro than a forced press opportunity.