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  #661  
Old 09-03-2019, 06:01
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*member who complains about antisemitism being mentioned ends up derailing the thread onto anti semitism. Sigh, people complained when I wanted to talk about Richey’s lyrical style....

Note 1: All I'll say on the matter is racism of all types is on the rise, not just anti-semitism. It isn't a whataboutery argument but people seem to forget that it was a certain party that encouraged a certain xenophobic mindset and that's expanded to include minority citzens who have roots going back decades if not centuries. People seem to feel more relaxed about expressing their prejudices. This country feels like a simmering kettle at the moment.

Note 2: It's not really for Goyems (speaking as one) to decide whether or not Jewish people are feeling more threatended in today's society. I would also remind people that jews are more sensitive to this stuff because of the attempt to wipe them off the world. They feel it, that' what matters.
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  #662  
Old 09-03-2019, 09:14
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Wanted to make this point ages ago but always pressed the back button but fuck it, I think whatever antithingy from the book could be seen as an attack on the band supporting the BDS. Or that could be my BS.
Back to thread, nothing more to offer but however bad things really are, there's worse monsters in Westminster!
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  #663  
Old 09-03-2019, 09:52
Bryter Layter Bryter Layter is offline
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Wanted to make this point ages ago but always pressed the back button but fuck it, I think whatever antithingy from the book could be seen as an attack on the band supporting the BDS. Or that could be my BS.
Back to thread, nothing more to offer but however bad things really are, there's worse monsters in Westminster!
When did the Manics publicly come out and support the BDS movement? I know that walking ego Roger Waters mentioned they supported it a few years back, but I don’t ever recall them publicly saying they do.
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  #664  
Old 09-03-2019, 11:18
rosetree rosetree is offline
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He wore it far longer than just that day. His last interview with the Japanese press was on Jan 23rd I believe (he picked up the reporter at the train station wearing the PJs under his coat) and there are stories of him dressed like that showing up in London and now it seems he was dressing that way during the recording sessions too. He more than likely was dressing like that to sympathize with the victims, but I think he also probably saw himself as a victim on their level as well which is perhaps why Stringer maybe had words with him, if that story is actually true. The man was clearly mentally ill and going through a shit time though so you can't really judge him too harshly, as far as I'm concerned.
It's also possible that Richey was just being sincere and himself in portraying his feelings about the holocaust and more so with the intenseness of his album, in that he became completely involved in the content. It's also possible that he felt more a victim of the stigmas attached to mental illness. I also think the band were always supportive and never patronising, but possibly outsiders were who had no concern.

I don't know who has complained about anything? but I have seen some vile comments on the thread about the authors and Rachel and suggesting manipulations, though I think it's just a good idea to keep an open mind about opinions and suggestions of what happened.
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  #665  
Old 09-03-2019, 15:20
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When did the Manics publicly come out and support the BDS movement? I know that walking ego Roger Waters mentioned they supported it a few years back, but I don’t ever recall them publicly saying they do.

I remember Waters making those comments, too. But, like yourself, I have read nothing from the Manics to actually back that up. I remember an old interview with Richey in which he stated, very much in passing, that if Palestine had oil things would be very different there. And it was definitely Richey making that statement so the interview is at least 24 years old.

I Googled Manics and the boycott, but all I got was Waters' comments again. Nothing from the band themselves.
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  #666  
Old 09-03-2019, 21:15
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Originally Posted by Son of Stopped View Post
Wanted to make this point ages ago but always pressed the back button but fuck it, I think whatever antithingy from the book could be seen as an attack on the band supporting the BDS. Or that could be my BS.
Back to thread, nothing more to offer but however bad things really are, there's worse monsters in Westminster!
Could be your BS...and there's enough in and around this book already without you adding to it sir ..... I joke. But. It is BS nevertheless.

And as for Roger Waters mentioned - he didn't actually say the band were supporters to be fair. He himself is absolutely but he was making the general point that many artists worry about speaking out about the Israeli government for fear of being labelled anti-semitic with the exceptions of artists like Costello and the Manics....so he wasn't saying they were supporters only that they had the confidence to express their opinions.

I actually can't remember them passing any comment on the conflict....if Richey mentioned that things would be different if Palestine had oil....that be the truth for it is always different if you're sitting on the oil...or if you own the land the oil is sitting on...I appreciate the latter point could bring forth a whole argument in itself...!

If anything I've noticed that the band stay away in general from aligning themselves with any organisations and/or charities for that matter except for War Child....can understand why.

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It's also possible that Richey was just being sincere and himself in portraying his feelings about the holocaust and more so with the intenseness of his album, in that he became completely involved in the content. It's also possible that he felt more a victim of the stigmas attached to mental illness. I also think the band were always supportive and never patronising, but possibly outsiders were who had no concern.
It's possible that his choice of clothing and the holocaust identification is being misconstrued though? Not unlike the links to Rob Stringer. Apart from the last interview and photos I'm not sure if the accounts of him wearing them in the studio etc are verified or more supposition arising from the book. I puzzled as to why the interviewer didn't ask him as he asked about his shaved head. It could have been an all is vanity statement as shaving his head seemed in part to have been? All is vanity in reference to both his own vanity or a rejection of it and also to everything being in vain....it seems fair to suppose that by that date he'd made his mind up about something? It's only a theory like linking the pyjamas in to the holocaust but I don't feel that he would attempt to draw a parallel or attempt to identify with the holocaust victims so closely. If you look at his lyrics, if you listen to what he had to say on a film like Schindler's List, widely praised yet he felt dangerous because it risked giving the wrong impression...that the decent acts of one Nazi may reduce the scale of the evil perpertrated by the many in the minds of those approaching the history maybe for the first time through this film....I don't feel like he was the kind of person to try and appropriate the sufferings of the victims who died in the camps....I feel he may have felt that idea as abhorrent as Schindler's List.
At the time there were more references to the fact he was wearing the same converses as Kurt Cobain when he shot himself.
I'm not having a go....I just feel like we need to take a little care around suppositions...in contrast to the authors of this book. For we are better than that
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Last edited by raven; 09-03-2019 at 21:21. Reason: spillings and grandma erorz
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  #667  
Old 10-03-2019, 10:50
rosetree rosetree is offline
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It's possible that his choice of clothing and the holocaust identification is being misconstrued though? Not unlike the links to Rob Stringer. Apart from the last interview and photos I'm not sure if the accounts of him wearing them in the studio etc are verified or more supposition arising from the book. I puzzled as to why the interviewer didn't ask him as he asked about his shaved head. It could have been an all is vanity statement as shaving his head seemed in part to have been? All is vanity in reference to both his own vanity or a rejection of it and also to everything being in vain....it seems fair to suppose that by that date he'd made his mind up about something? It's only a theory like linking the pyjamas in to the holocaust but I don't feel that he would attempt to draw a parallel or attempt to identify with the holocaust victims so closely. If you look at his lyrics, if you listen to what he had to say on a film like Schindler's List, widely praised yet he felt dangerous because it risked giving the wrong impression...that the decent acts of one Nazi may reduce the scale of the evil perpertrated by the many in the minds of those approaching the history maybe for the first time through this film....I don't feel like he was the kind of person to try and appropriate the sufferings of the victims who died in the camps....I feel he may have felt that idea as abhorrent as Schindler's List.
At the time there were more references to the fact he was wearing the same converses as Kurt Cobain when he shot himself.
I'm not having a go....I just feel like we need to take a little care around suppositions...in contrast to the authors of this book. For we are better than that
I think it's likely Richey shaved his head and wore pyjamas around the time and in the studio because he felt an affinity with the suffering and crimes and he portrayed expressions in THB. As the band had visited Dachau during making the album, Richey had mentioned his distress at the idea of 'certain politicians and writers playing down the horror of such a place'. He had said the film was misleading in the scale. Though it is telling a particular story. If the Rob Stringer story is true or an implication about the band. I don't think they would have seen it as an importance as implied they were concerned about the loss from the album? I think their feelings for Richey were unconditional irrespective, though it is likely Richey's health problems were accelerated in writing THB, as he became absorbed in it and he had become more depressed in the events that happened to him during the time. I think if there was more evidence from the time of investigation there wouldn't have to be so much speculation. It does seem possible though that he could have planned to leave everything and live somewhere unknown, as he had mentioned such ideas in interviews.
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  #668  
Old 10-03-2019, 22:05
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Originally Posted by Routine Builder View Post
*member who complains about antisemitism being mentioned ends up derailing the thread onto anti semitism. Sigh, people complained when I wanted to talk about Richey’s lyrical style....

Note 1: All I'll say on the matter is racism of all types is on the rise, not just anti-semitism. It isn't a whataboutery argument but people seem to forget that it was a certain party that encouraged a certain xenophobic mindset and that's expanded to include minority citzens who have roots going back decades if not centuries. People seem to feel more relaxed about expressing their prejudices. This country feels like a simmering kettle at the moment.

Note 2: It's not really for Goyems (speaking as one) to decide whether or not Jewish people are feeling more threatended in today's society. I would also remind people that jews are more sensitive to this stuff because of the attempt to wipe them off the world. They feel it, that' what matters.
“Goyim” is the plural of “goy,” so no S on the end.

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  #669  
Old 11-03-2019, 23:35
Bryter Layter Bryter Layter is offline
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It's also possible that Richey was just being sincere and himself in portraying his feelings about the holocaust and more so with the intenseness of his album, in that he became completely involved in the content. It's also possible that he felt more a victim of the stigmas attached to mental illness. I also think the band were always supportive and never patronising, but possibly outsiders were who had no concern.
I'm sure he was very sincere, but he was indulged because of his illness. Not even an eccentric could get away with dressing like a concentration camp victim because he/she empathized with them. There are certain places you don't go and that's one of them. That being said, I don't think he ever told anyone that was the reason he was wearing PJs. Maybe he just liked being comfortable or maybe he was just a desperately lonely person looking for attention? I've heard things over the years about the things he did just so he wouldn't be alone. His sister apparently speaks to this in the book as well. Pretty sad stuff.

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I remember Waters making those comments, too. But, like yourself, I have read nothing from the Manics to actually back that up. I remember an old interview with Richey in which he stated, very much in passing, that if Palestine had oil things would be very different there. And it was definitely Richey making that statement so the interview is at least 24 years old.

I Googled Manics and the boycott, but all I got was Waters' comments again. Nothing from the band themselves.
I don't recall Richey ever making any statements about Israel or the plight of the Palestinians. Do you remember where you saw that? Anyway, I think Israel is far more important to Americans and western allies as a strategic, like-minded military ally in a region they view as uncontrollable. Even if there was oil there, I'm not sure their support of an Israeli state would waver.

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And as for Roger Waters mentioned - he didn't actually say the band were supporters to be fair. He himself is absolutely but he was making the general point that many artists worry about speaking out about the Israeli government for fear of being labelled anti-semitic with the exceptions of artists like Costello and the Manics....so he wasn't saying they were supporters only that they had the confidence to express their opinions.
How would he know though? Maybe they signed one of those BDS declarations or something? They must be worried about being labelled antisemitic too if they've not said anything publicly though. Lol!

I agree that they've never really had much conviction about a lot of issues outside of Britain even when Richey was around (not entirely a bad thing mind you). Richey used to say, particularly throughout '94, that he didn't believe that bands or celebrities could make a difference when it came to social issues so maybe they all believe that. It does seem to be a small bone of contention among some Manics fans that a band who were so politically charged lyrically at one time, rarely say anything at all anymore about important issues. Personally, I don't care about that kind of thing, but I can see why a Brit might be a little miffed by their silence especially these days.
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  #670  
Old 12-03-2019, 13:06
rosetree rosetree is offline
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I'm sure he was very sincere, but he was indulged because of his illness. Not even an eccentric could get away with dressing like a concentration camp victim because he/she empathized with them. There are certain places you don't go and that's one of them. That being said, I don't think he ever told anyone that was the reason he was wearing PJs. Maybe he just liked being comfortable or maybe he was just a desperately lonely person looking for attention? I've heard things over the years about the things he did just so he wouldn't be alone. His sister apparently speaks to this in the book as well. Pretty sad stuff.
He was unwell, though I was just mentioning there may be some connection between his actions and lyrics on morality, injustice, political correctness, than equating himself or being comfortable in where he went.
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  #671  
Old 13-03-2019, 15:36
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Urgh, sorry folks, had to check out on this for a bit, all got A Bit Much and was eating up all my brainspace. Never a good sign, at least I'm better at realising it happening these days. I went proper ye olde FMF for a couple of weeks there. Intensely intense srs bznz.

Anyway! Time to jump back in! Not least because it seems the damn book is actually coming out this time, ie tomorrow. Copies have apparently been received by people who preordered, and spotted in shops. It's happening. I am intrigued to see what, if anything, has been taken out - the page count on Amazon remains the same. Beyond that, I really wish this wasn't happening.

Just going to catch up with the thread now...
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  #672  
Old 13-03-2019, 16:14
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I'm pretty impressed that the Amazon page lists it as #16 in Opera Singer Biographies.
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  #673  
Old 13-03-2019, 16:15
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For everyone asking about the anti-semitic stuff - Finn's summary is pretty much it:

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In reference to the book, it says that Rob Stringer had words with Richey during their last stint in the studio. It talks about concerns about the bands next step and financial losses. It adds that part of the problem/discussion might have been Richey's shaved head and striped PJ's look- 'the elephant in the room' that seemed to suggest 'a concentration camp vibe' (the books descriptions, not mine.) It specifically states that this might of offended Stringer because of Jewish family members. It's that mix of comments about money, control, holocaust imagery and Jewish family members that some readers have found dogwhistley. Others haven't.
If it was an isolated case of 'oh dang you could potentially read that a certain way' then it wouldn't be so much of an issue, but more than once becomes... a question. People aren't just Making A Thing out of it for no reason. It's come up and been talked about because the book provoked that. The same goes for a lot of things being discussed in this thread. For instance:

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I have seen some vile comments on the thread about the authors and Rachel and suggesting manipulations, though I think it's just a good idea to keep an open mind about opinions and suggestions of what happened.
These 'vile comments' haven't been made apropos of nothing - people aren't just out for the authors and/or Rachel. Open minds were kept until we knew what was going on - we're now going off SHR and very probably Rachel's past behaviour on this forum and elsewhere online, interviews given, comments made, and the content of the book itself. That's quite a lot of evidence. I don't know how, considering everything we now know, any other conclusions could be drawn than the ones that have been. I'm not sure what you want us to hold out for exactly?

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But, since this discussion began, I've found myself wondering more and more about the two weeks he seemed to have spent just driving around and living in his car. You could say he was just revisiting old haunts he loved. But two weeks for that? In a country the size of Wales? It'd take a day or two, at most. As someone said earlier, it seems like he was waiting for something. A one-year passport could well have been it.
My best theory on this is that Richey didn't account for the withdrawal of coming off anti-depressants cold-turkey. Whatever he'd intended to do immediately after leaving, he had to put on hold to deal with that. Hence the living hin his car, etc. I think then, when he was feeling 'better' enough, he continued with whatever his plan had been originally.

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What does the book say regarding his mental health?? or that it was worse then we thought? I honestly believe he was very very sick. Things like beating his head against wall of hotel saying he wanted to go home or breaking his guitar and hitting himself with it at the Astoria has led me to believe that. More evidence to his state of mind is his obsession with Apocalypse Now, late night calls to nicky asking about the time, buying a meat cleaver. Someone on this forum I believe Bornagirl 76 told me the change his mental health it wasn't insidious or building up but was pretty dramatic and you could tell. IDK he was made to go to health farms after every tour, and was crying all the time so I think it was there and then he reached some breaking point. His last interview was sometimes incoherent and contradicting himself and the interview with MTV prior to the hospital and a couple of months after Philip's death seems to me immediate red flags. Again all of this is speculation. It was also reported as I said above that he was drinking, self harming and not eating sometime after he left hospital.
Can only be of limited use here as I'm still struggling to face the hospital pages and the gross, gross invasion of privacy that is publishing some of his notes made there and interviewing people who were in hospital with him. I remain astounded by these decisions. With the fellow patients, not only astounded that they were chased up, but that they agreed to speak. How would they feel if it were Richey talking about them?

Anyway, from an overview/reading around standpoint, I felt like Richey's mental health was one of the main things that the book contorted itself around. It does this a lot, throughout: presents information that you think leads to an obvious conclusion - in this case 'God, Richey was really incredibly mentally unwell' - then says the opposite as its conclusion. We all knew Richey was ill, but it's really starkly drawn and fleshed out in WT - then used to suggest Aspergers, creative genius, ill treatment by someone else, basically just anything other than undeniable serious mental illness. It's maddening (excuse the really-not-intended pun, can't think of a better word).
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Last edited by sofarsideways; 13-03-2019 at 16:20.
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  #674  
Old 13-03-2019, 16:23
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I'm pretty impressed that the Amazon page lists it as #16 in Opera Singer Biographies.
A categorisation arguably less ridiculous and incorrect than some of the book's content ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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  #675  
Old 13-03-2019, 16:46
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I am intrigued to see what, if anything, has been taken out - the page count on Amazon remains the same..
This is only a comment I read on Instagram, so take it as that, although I'd imagine This Person would've asked SHR.

According to the author it’s because they have to keep omitting private details (addresses, etc.) from the book...

I know Richey's flat and details where the band have lived in the past is out there and fans would know the addresses. Maybe it's a legal thing to not mention them? I'm not an author so that's only a guess.

I really do think that sales of the book are going to be pretty poor. That's not even me having a downer on the thing. I think it'll soon blow over. I don't think the band will mention it and it already seems those who've read it are taking the info with a pinch of salt. It's disheartening to see fans being excited over receiving the book in the mail. To me it'd be like someone posting dog shit through my mailbox.

Last edited by handbag; 13-03-2019 at 16:50.
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