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  #541  
Old 27-02-2019, 05:42
Bryter Layter Bryter Layter is offline
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Originally Posted by theplague View Post
Itís starting to get beyond that.
Anyone whoís been through hard times canít have a free pass to behave in such disgraceful and unjustifiable ways unremarked.
That is true! Also, from the excepts Iíve read, Richey is coming off as a really very sad person. Itís obvious he had his issues, but if you want to ďreclaimĒ him from the tortured genius moniker, why is he being portrayed as a severely tortured artist? Lol! I havenít read much, but what pages I have, I donít think a book has depressed me as much as this one.

Thereís actually a line in the new book that says, ďalong the way, he (Richey) had occasional dalliances with groupies, but that wasnít really Richeyís style.Ē Lol! Are they purposely revising history or are they just incredibly delusional? Ha!
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  #542  
Old 27-02-2019, 06:29
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I agree. It seems only reasonable to conclude she's angry and wants to hit out. I feel they are all in a strange place where none have been able to grieve him because they don't know for certain what happened and even if they found out he had taken his life that doesn't resolve things. Anger is maybe all some people have? Reading through the thread and parts drawn from the book my impression based only from these posts is that she feels shut out, doesn't matter if that's true or not or of her own making or not, he had a life with the band she knew little of because as she herself as said he didn't talk about it with her and of course she wasn't there...our big brothers grow up. It doesn't sound like she saw the box passed to Jo personally and the band have had a platform for feelings she's had no means to express. Conversations and impressions are skewered maybe to fit her own perspective....these ideas expressed at some point by Jo (who didn't want to be interviewed for the book it seems clear? and the band haven't spoken of her because it's private but also because they have said they didn't know her.....if there's no connection it's easy for her to therefore become used as the 'oracle') that he was unhappy with the persona he had - Rachel and/or SHR? blames the band but Richey spoke publicly of his frustration....He was so young when he started out I don't know if he realised that when you portray an image that's what you're in danger of becoming for good. People won't see past it. Pigeon hole ticked. Fuck all the political history on The Holy Bible and tell me more about the self mutilation and anorexia...of course that must have been frustrating and he can only have blamed himself/felt trapped surely, precisely because he wasn't an idiot.

I can understand her anger, hear me out, because she was his sister and the band were around him so much through the time up to his disappearance why didn't they do more.....of course it's an unfair question, why didn't she, why didn't his family, why , why why.... what about his family, allusions to church, moving house, 'they fuck you up your mum and dad...they may not mean to but....'.....you can look at everything and find nothing makes sense ....for things to make sense there must be someone to blame. Maybe there is and maybe there isn't and maybe it's a bit of lots of things all mixed up and maybe, weirdly, the band were actually just too damn close and you're often the last person who can help when you're too close

I don't recall Nicky blaming the church in part for Richey's problems - blamed The Priory's pseudoreligious bollox for not helping and he was surely right. I do recall Richey talking about being stuck on the idea of reconciling yourself with a God, didn't have to be God could be someone God-like in your life but everyone dies/leaves so how can they be God....as I think that's something like the first of the 12 steps it really wasn't gonna fecking help an over-thinker was it??? Maybe if he has criticised beyond this it grates because she's found solace from the church. It is weird families and religion.....speaking as a erm brought up now lapsed Catholic it isn't true that it messes you up completely, too easy to blame it for that, but when you no longer follow it you can remain close to family members who do but there can be, I dunno, it's a mindset that shapes so many ideas that you just can't share, it can be distancing and confusing but I digress....

William's Last Words reads like a suicide note. Rage is maybe all she's got?

SHR is just too inexperienced. It doesn't sound like a biography more an outlet of despair and anger...In need of a good deal of editing before publication but really in need of a more experienced writer who would talk to everyone and remain objective. Maybe scrap the book and pick up the phone...

The not knowing is impossible to reconcile with but maybe it's not just not knowing what happened to him for sure but the uncertainty about ever having truly known him completely at all. But who ever does know anyone else completely.....not anyone who is worth knowing anyway! I remember The Times said it's in a way a biography of someone who disappeared long before he actually did.
As usual, I hope that most people on this thread have read Raven's post.
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  #543  
Old 27-02-2019, 07:42
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The Manicsí constant editing of each otherís work is disregarded, Williamís Last Words being particularly lambasted. Personally I think itís beautiful that Nicky turned something long, rambling and hard to use into such a gorgeous tribute to their friendship. As ever, he was trying to make sense of Richey, to celebrate and hold onto the love beneath the struggles of understanding when Richey was unwell and thinking Ďfaster and fasterí.
Nah, come on, sheís got him on that one. Nicky decided to become a tabloid editor with that song. Itís revolting and would understandably be offensive to Richeyís sister. Iíve said that ever since the full lyrics were shown.
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  #544  
Old 27-02-2019, 08:36
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Did SHR interview David Cross or Lori Fidler? Seeing how they figure in the reported events at the time, I'd be surprised if she didn't write something. Well, I wouldn't be surprised because the research for the book seems to be geared towards people on the sidelines who know Richey more than anyone else ever did (apparently).
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  #545  
Old 27-02-2019, 08:38
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Originally Posted by Dancing Kirby View Post
Nah, come on, sheís got him on that one. Nicky decided to become a tabloid editor with that song. Itís revolting and would understandably be offensive to Richeyís sister. Iíve said that ever since the full lyrics were shown.
You've read the full lyrics because the band published them. By doing so they were making it clear, I think, that the song is but one interpretation of the words left behind, and inviting others to adopt their own meaning. As written by Richey, William's Last Words is not a song, so they had to do something.
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  #546  
Old 27-02-2019, 09:09
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Originally Posted by begging_to_be_cool View Post
You've read the full lyrics because the band published them. By doing so they were making it clear, I think, that the song is but one interpretation of the words left behind, and inviting others to adopt their own meaning. As written by Richey, William's Last Words is not a song, so they had to do something.
The 'you're my best friend' line doesn't and never sat well with me. The lyric that Nicky edited seems like a love note to the band, where Richey's essay seems much more vague and intangible. If you read the lyric from Rachel's perspective, it looks like the band is once again claiming ownership of the grief.

When the song came out, I pretty much remember the forum here being quite critical of the lyric. Still love the song though, one of the best produced songs in their catalogue and the outro still sends me into tears 10 years later (fuck it's been 10 years)...
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Last edited by Routine Builder; 27-02-2019 at 09:19.
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  #547  
Old 27-02-2019, 09:19
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If you read the lyric from Rachel's perspective, it looks like the band is once again claiming ownership of the grief.
Fair enough, I can see that, even if it wasn't the intention.
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  #548  
Old 27-02-2019, 09:31
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'Yr the best friends I ever had' does actually feature in the original lyrics. So I don't really see the problem at all. It's a fuss over nothing.
Nicky also incudes the line 'I'm just gonna close my eyes, think about my family
And shed a little tear'.
So it's hardly the band trying to claim him as their own.

This is a non argument.

Last edited by beautifuldistortion; 27-02-2019 at 09:32. Reason: Awful spelling
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  #549  
Old 27-02-2019, 09:34
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As quite a few people disagree on this point, it is very much a non-non argument.
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  #550  
Old 27-02-2019, 09:41
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sofarsideways sofarsideways is offline
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Originally Posted by Dancing Kirby View Post
Nah, come on, she’s got him on that one. Nicky decided to become a tabloid editor with that song. It’s revolting and would understandably be offensive to Richey’s sister. I’ve said that ever since the full lyrics were shown.
She’s ‘got him’? Seriously? She disagrees with his editing of a song and makes out that all of Richey’s words are sacred and untouchable. The band are simultaneously nothing without them and should never use them. If you don’t like the lyric or the way it was edited that’s absolutely a valid opinion, but not one it’s fair or reasonable to weaponise. I obviously feel differently, but either way I don’t think it can be said there was anything but love behind the treatment of that lyric.

We only know how WLW, and indeed all of JFPL, was edited because we were given access to the original lyric sheets. They didn’t have to share those but they did out of respect and admiration for what they were working with. If we saw the originals of all their songs vs how they ended up, I bet the form and intention of most would end up considerably different that they started out.

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Originally Posted by Routine Builder View Post
The 'you're my best friend' line doesn't and never sat well with me. The lyric that Nicky edited seems like a love note to the band, where Richey's essay seems much more vague and intangible. If you read the lyric from Rachel's perspective, it looks like the band is once again claiming ownership of the grief.

When the song came out, I pretty much remember the forum here being quite critical of the lyric. Still love the song though, one of the best produced songs in their catalogue and the outro still sends me into tears 10 years later (fuck it's been 10 years)...
But why wouldn’t the band curate the song towards them? It’s a song, of lyrics, given to them. Again, the love works both ways. Why can’t they deal with their grief via what they were given?

This criticism is mentioned in the book as if it gives theirs validity, incidentally.

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Originally Posted by theplague View Post
It’s starting to get beyond that.
Anyone who’s been through hard times can’t have a free pass to behave in such disgraceful and unjustifiable ways unremarked.
Very, very much this.
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Last edited by sofarsideways; 27-02-2019 at 09:47.
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  #551  
Old 27-02-2019, 09:43
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How do. I don't come on here much these days but I too have this book. The chapters I've read and parts I've managed to skim-read so far have been ridiculous; a combination of both obvious and surprising facts, contradictory anecdotes, sixth form analysis and conjecture, and outright horse shit. I won't deny parts of it are quite interesting and intriguing but casual fans or those unfamiliar with the band's history may struggle to separate fact from fanfic.

Updated: I hasten to add my dismay with Rachel Elias and her involvement here. I always had a tremendous amount of respect for her, and the way she kept her distance from music mythology and cheap celebrity gossip, the dignified way she handled the various Missing People awareness interviews, poignant comments on TV, changes to the law she was part of pushing for etc, but I'm astonished she said okay to this instead of maintaining cordial contact with the band. The author just comes across like a 16 year old with a spiteful vendetta.

Last edited by NasalScarecrow; 27-02-2019 at 10:07.
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  #552  
Old 27-02-2019, 10:05
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With regards to WLW, I'm not trying to paint a definitive interpretation of the lyric or essay. The fact is that the lyric is very emotive and is so because of the choice editing by Nicky. Usually it was James who edited lyrics but for whatever reason the band chose to have Nicky edit them for JPFL.

Also the lyric doesn't sit easily with Richey's other lyrics. Richey is not one to speak in his view from the first person. In the essay, it's clear that Richey is inhabiting a persona rather than necessarily speaking with his own voice. The lyric sounds like a direct message from Richey with little or ambiguity which quite honestly is not his style.
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  #553  
Old 27-02-2019, 10:05
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The contradictions and omissions appear to astounding.

-According to Rachel and SHR Richey was the bands chief lyricist, but she's not happy with the band using his lyrics!

-She expects them to be untouched which is ridiculous, I'm certain James edited pretty much everything Richey gave to him in some way.

-Without the rest of the band none of us would even of heard of Richey. They gave him his platform.
- Don't forget they existed first without him. Of course his lyrics were a major factor in the early years, I am not disputing that at all. But the fact is Nicky, James and Sean were there at the start and the idea of the band was Nicky and James' in the first place.

- I know lots of people that never even knew Richey existed and think the Manics are a 3 piece. They got success with lyrics from Nicky. In this case I feel the popularity of say ADFL and the rest of EMG was due to the quality of the songs, yes it was music for the masses, but the band had always intended to be huge and successful and this only happened after Richey.

This success led to those interested delving deeper into the bands history and becoming aware of Richeys contributions.
This now seems to be conveniently forgotten by the authors and all involved with this nasty little book.
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  #554  
Old 27-02-2019, 10:10
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Originally Posted by Routine Builder View Post

Also the lyric doesn't sit easily with Richey's other lyrics. Richey is not one to speak in his view from the first person. In the essay, it's clear that Richey is inhabiting a persona rather than necessarily speaking with his own voice. The lyric sounds like a direct message from Richey with little or ambiguity which quite honestly is not his style.
Faster?
FDTW?
Sleepflower?
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  #555  
Old 27-02-2019, 10:28
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Faster?
FDTW?
Sleepflower?
Faster- joint lyric but feel free to point out where people have called Richey a butcher or to all the buildings he has designed..

Are FDTW and Sleepfliwer not joint lyrics?
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