Mao

[Krystal]

Does anyone understand why Nicky Wire loved Mao Zedong when he was a dictator?

It’s like so wrong.

[Routine Builder]

Here's the quote:

I've always had a slightly dodgy fetish with people of great power, even if they abused their power to a massive extent. How Mao managed to come from such humble surroundings to become leader of a quarter of the world and managed to drag them forward at the expense of 43 million people is amazing To do that, in your own head you've got to be amazingly strong. I just really admire the way he refused all western influences. He made Richard Nixon seem like a complete fool and I hated Nixon, because he was like a slimy second-hand car dealer. I think that Mao looked really great Exciting stuff, exciting times

Edgelord....

[Krystal]

Such crap, he should know better.,

[Son of Stopped]

Well personally although Putin is as dodgy as any of them, I have a weird fascination with him and his career and just the way he still finds a way to cling to power.
Probably not Mao though. And not even Lennon hangover, my life would suck even worse than it appears to be under Mao.
Any idea the date of the quote? Maybe he's subconsciously named the one thing that could have possibly prevented the Manics forming!

[Routine Builder]

Early 1994 from the NME, just about the tail end of Nicky saying just the worst shit. It's one thing to ignore the famines and cultural revolution but to actually hand wave it aside as a price to pay for greatness? Grade A level bullshit.

I'm glad he's gotten older and a bit wiser....

[IntlDebris]

He and Richey spoke a lot of shit back in the day. It was an era when this stuff was more genuinely shocking and less tedious edgelord crap, without the possibility of online backlash. Not sure if this excuses it as such, but it's a nice reminder that not everything is worse these days.

[Krystal]

I’m sure they were selling t shirts with Mao quotes at Millennium. I’m not sure he’s got any wiser.

[Routine Builder]

http://www.foreverdelayed.org.uk/msp...e=File:Moa.jpg

It's been tewnty years since then though.... fuck..

[Elizabeth M]

Originally Posted by Routine Builder

http://www.foreverdelayed.org.uk/msp...e=File:Moa.jpg

It's been tewnty years since then though.... fuck..

The quote on that T-shirt is an attitude that is destroying society today!

[cameron33]

Can’t speak for Nicky Wire, but a lot of people have a fairly simplistic/Western lens take on Mao. Yes undoubtedly some Mao’s policies, in some regions, exacerbated the poverty there. But China was a very, very poor country at the time, and there were natural disasters during those years. And if you actually compare the stats with, say, India at that time, some of China’s life expectancy/infant mortality stats improved post famine years. Further, may of the sky high estimates of deaths during the Great Famine are essentially based on falling population. Well, that’s one way to do it, but strange not to factor in how you would expect birth rates to drop rapidly during a terrible famine. Having more children is the last thing people would be doing.

Now, more generally, Mao is considered 70% good/30% bad by today’s China. If anything, he is far more revered by the very old 70+ generation who actually lived through his rule than by everyone else in modern China. Though generally speaking he is still a hero to more than a billion people. Not everything under Mao was bad, and there were big improvements in many areas. For a start, life expectancy improved from 40 years old when he became leader to just over 60 years old in 1976. By comparison, India went from approx 35 years to 50 years in the same period. Ok, this is straight from Wikipedia now:

“A controversial figure, Mao is regarded as one of the most important and influential individuals in modern world history. He is also known as a political intellect, theorist, military strategist, poet, and visionary. During Mao's era, China was involved in the Korean War, the Sino-Soviet split, the Vietnam War, and the rise of Khmer Rouge; in particular, in 1972, Mao welcomed U.S. President Richard Nixon in Beijing, signalling the start of a policy of opening China to the world. Supporters credit him with driving imperialism out of China, modernising the nation and building it into a world power, promoting the status of women, improving education and health care, as well as increasing life expectancy of average Chinese.

Conversely, his regime has been called autocratic and totalitarian, and condemned for bringing about mass repression and destroying religious and cultural artifacts and sites. It was additionally responsible for vast numbers of deaths with estimates ranging from 40 to 80 million victims through starvation, persecution, prison labour and mass executions”

So, yeah I wouldn’t nominate him for the Nobel peace prize, but the Mao = Hitler/
Pol Pot line largely peddled in the West is, well, a bit dumb. By the standards of a rich 21st century European his rule was full of a fair amount of awful shit, but he ruled a poverty stricken China in 1950, coming right off the back of a hundred years of imperial plunder, not the UK in 2020.

[Tim]

Total edgelord before that was even a thing. Daft sod.

Originally Posted by Elizabeth M

The quote on that T-shirt is an attitude that is destroying society today!

It's funny isn't it, a lot of counter-culture stuff doesn't seem so appealing in 2020 when covidiots and qanon nuts are taking it as an instruction manual. See also george carlin, i love some of his standup but too many have only heard his nihilism and how everything is corrupt so why bother but missed the point he was making about a well educated well informed populace with the ability to think critically.

[Routine Builder]

Originally Posted by cameron33

Can’t speak for Nicky Wire, but a lot of people have a fairly simplistic/Western lens take on Mao. Yes undoubtedly some Mao’s policies, in some regions, exacerbated the poverty there. But China was a very, very poor country at the time, and there were natural disasters during those years. And if you actually compare the stats with, say, India at that time, some of China’s life expectancy/infant mortality stats improved post famine years. Further, may of the sky high estimates of deaths during the Great Famine are essentially based on falling population. Well, that’s one way to do it, but strange not to factor in how you would expect birth rates to drop rapidly during a terrible famine. Havin
g more children is the last thing people would be doing.

That's some nice hand waving of the deaths of 40 + million people.

Now, more generally, Mao is considered 70% good/30% bad by today’s China. If anything, he is far more revered by the very old 70+ generation who actually lived through his rule than by everyone else in modern China.

And what would it be without a state controlled media and a police state where dissent is actively punished? I guess those folk in Hong Kong are worried about nothing, they just haven't had the right education yet.

So, yeah I wouldn’t nominate him for the Nobel peace prize, but the Mao = Hitler/Pol Pot line largely peddled in the West is, well, a bit dumb.
By the standards of a rich 21st century European his rule was full of a fair amount of awful shit, but he ruled a poverty stricken China in 1950, coming right off the back of a hundred years of imperial plunder, not the UK in 2020.

What imperial powers did in China does not excuse what Mao did afterwards. He owns that, both the good and the bad. He is both the architect and the butcher. (Maybe Faster is partially about Mao, not completely out considering the artwork for the single)

There are few people in history who are responsible for the deaths of over 40 million people, it is not completely unfair to draw comparisons between such folk.

[River Boy]

It's the dangerous leftie habit that so many fall for if they have a blinkered view of Conservativism being evil, rather than looking for a more grounded truth. They encounter all the passion of left-wing ideology and assume it must be some wonderful heavenly idea.

Usually, like with Nicky, it eventually dawns on them that the likes of Mao and Stalin (whose name he used to spray-paint on walls) were at least as bad as Hitler and killed more people. Amazingly though there's still people who cling to this extreme left-wing ideology as begin something to aspire to. Recently I've been detecting growing Communist voices trying to make a claim for Marxist teachings being relevant again because technology can now allow us to achieve Communist ideals more effectively without human error. Basically looking to take human judgement out of governing.

Utter bollocks!

I don't blame Nicky for growing up under Thatcherism and choosing something idealistic, like a lot of young minds do, but it would be nice if more artists, musicians, etc., were more vocal about the nonsense of left-wing extremism, rather than simply going for the Tories all the time because they just present a much easier target.

[Routine Builder]

Originally Posted by River Boy

It's the dangerous leftie habit that so many fall for if they have a blinkered view of Conservativism being evil, rather than looking for a more grounded truth. They encounter all the passion of left-wing ideology and assume it must be some wonderful heavenly idea.

Plenty on the right are still happy to extol the virtues of colonialism today. They're happy to state that the bloodshed or famines were the price worth paying for raising the standard of living in colonial states. We see this lately in politicians' reluctance to examine the history of slavery in this country. This doesn't make it ok for the left to do the same but I find the insinuation that it's limited to Corbyn supporters somewhat narrow-minded.

The reason why the conservatives are an easy target is that they've been in power for the last ten years. They are responsible for state the country is now for better or for worse. Left wing extremism has naught to do with budget cuts or the dismantling of social security nets. Plenty of left wing musicians criticised Blair on Iraq and other issues but he gets a free pass these days because he knew how to win elections.

[River Boy]

Originally Posted by Routine Builder

Plenty on the right are still happy to extol the virtues of colonialism today. They're happy to state that the bloodshed or famines were the price worth paying for raising the standard of living in colonial states. We see this lately in politicians' reluctance to examine the history of slavery in this country. This doesn't make it ok for the left to do the same but I find the insinuation that it's limited to Corbyn supporters somewhat narrow-minded.

The reason why the conservatives are an easy target is that they've been in power for the last ten years. They are responsible for state the country is now for better or for worse. Left wing extremism has naught to do with budget cuts or the dismantling of social security nets. Plenty of left wing musicians criticised Blair on Iraq and other issues but he gets a free pass these days because he knew how to win elections.

I wasn't actually referring to Corbyn or his supporters but out and out Communists, who are starting to become more vocal.

I completely agree with your points, especially regarding the hypocrisy on both the extreme left and right. Because the thread focuses on Wire - a left-wing lyricist who has been vocal about his hatred of Thatcherism - a just feel that asking him to dismiss Maoist notions is a pertinent point, especially as likeminded people who agree with his views might veer in that direction and not feel any shame in doing so if the artists that inspire them have not bothered to be equally as clear that they don't support left-wing extremism.