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  #16  
Old 21-09-2012, 19:17
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Originally Posted by Nature's Discontent View Post
I used to be more attracted to the politics at one point, now not so much. My views have changed over time:

Initially - (slightly ignorant) Yeah, they seem to really like their incendiary political slogans don't they?

Then - Wow, I'm really into their politics and their lyrics!

Now - Oh shut up Nicky, before you embarrass yourself any further...
Ah, the natural evolution of any manics fan.
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  #17  
Old 21-09-2012, 19:27
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Originally Posted by Flint View Post
Not arsed. Don't really care about politics in the first place, don't really care about what the bands whose music I enjoy think about the subject. The only way it affects me is that directly political lyrics tend to be fairly cringy and Manics have their fair share of those. Other than that, shrug. It's the music I care about, not their politics degrees.
Fair enough. I'm reluctant to attach too much to music sometimes, feels like it could be a bit of a detraction sometimes.

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They don't really have a political side. You can say you do, and throw in the odd reference to an individual or an event in history, but that's not political in the same way as someone like Billy Bragg might be.
Yeah, but even throwing the odd reference here or there is more than most the stuff to break the top 10 has ever done.

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Originally Posted by Nature's Discontent View Post
I used to be more attracted to the politics at one point, now not so much. My views have changed over time:

Initially - (slightly ignorant) Yeah, they seem to really like their incendiary political slogans don't they?

Then - Wow, I'm really into their politics and their lyrics!

Now - Oh shut up Nicky, before you embarrass yourself any further...
Hah, true story.
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  #18  
Old 21-09-2012, 22:56
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Well, besides Manic Street Preachers and The Clash (and Sigue SIgue Sputnik, ehm), my puberty and teenage years were filled with anarho-punk and hard core bands, such as Crass. And then later I've got addicted to New Model Army as well.

Politics of the artists are important for me, but not essencial. Usually artists who care about politics and society have more interesting lyrics, and if you add some poetic skills to it, it can be seriously charming and it surely makes me think and reflect deep.

On the other hand, I might appreciate some artists for the pure musical creativity. For example, bands like Polysics, Metronome and P-Model. They sing in Japanese, I understand a little, but not enough to know what they are actually singing about, so I'm not sure about their view on politics, but I assume they don't really have them mixed with their art (except P-Model, they sound like they do, especially because Hirasawa in his solo career has released the "Songs Against Carnage", against wars, particularly the one between the USA and Iraq, that happened after the Twin Towers attack).
But well, that doesn't happen only when I don't understand the lyrics, there are many songs in English, Italian and Croatian, that have not much politics or stuff in their songs, but the music and / or poetry is cute, so I like it.
And there is this Korean band, GoGo Star, which I really love, but they're also not that much about these things.

Finally, no matter how good the music is, I never listen to some neo-nazzi and racist crap and I don't like U2 either because Bono is a fake.
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  #19  
Old 22-09-2012, 04:30
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  #20  
Old 22-09-2012, 08:23
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Originally Posted by Takk View Post
Ah, the natural evolution of any manics fan.
Or, in fact, the political life of the average citizen. Ignorance, belief, disbelief. Same as it ever was.

I'd say I agree with most things they sing about. I was never quite the angry young man but I've always been a stew-er and a bottler and the Manics help release some of that. It sounds, god how I hate this expression, quintessentially English (shudders) but there was a time when I would sigh on the inside, say ouch if I hurt myself inside my head etc rather than make a fuss, hell I'd barely breathe out loud for fear of making a noise but I learnt you can't keep everything inside without going a little mad.
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  #21  
Old 22-09-2012, 10:37
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Or, in fact, the political life of the average citizen. Ignorance, belief, disbelief. Same as it ever was.
Yeah... It's not like their mass communication obsession turned up hand in hand with Postcards From A Young Man, I think they've always wanted to speak to the average citizen and musically they can appeal to anyone but politically, academically it's hard to get the balance right. In some ways I think they're piggy in the middle between average ignorance and academic snobbery.

I don't know what people expect sometimes. When I was getting into them I'd hardly heard of anyone they were referencing so I started looking into stuff, learnt more like that than I did at school. Referencing alone is more than the majority of popular bands do. It raises awareness and inspires people to go off and read this or that, I wonder how many people on here would've read American Psycho or whatever if it weren't for the Manics. I don't know, for people already familiar with the references maybe that's not enough. Maybe they don't like that the band want to appeal to the average citizen, maybe they want them to be a bit more exclusive, write more academic lyrics, I don't know.

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Originally Posted by fromdespairtowhere View Post
I'd say I agree with most things they sing about. I was never quite the angry young man but I've always been a stew-er and a bottler and the Manics help release some of that. It sounds, god how I hate this expression, quintessentially English (shudders) but there was a time when I would sigh on the inside, say ouch if I hurt myself inside my head etc rather than make a fuss, hell I'd barely breathe out loud for fear of making a noise but I learnt you can't keep everything inside without going a little mad.
Oh yeah, I get that.. In that sense I suppose it's more personal than political but they can do both at the same time. They're as capable of the Oasis swagger as they are The Smiths' introspection or whatever. I doubt it's like they're trying to hold all the aces or whaever, I think it's just them being them.
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  #22  
Old 22-09-2012, 11:45
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I've missed this place, and you bloke, and I don't even know your name! Must maintain my allegiance but have been working hard and building a new kitchen(!)

I've been, I don't know if fortunate is the word, but politics have always played a pretty big part in my upbringing and life. Dad taught me the art of sticking up for causes and shouting at the television (not to mention hating nationalism, the Tories, the royals, etc). When my sister went to college and had dinner round her friend's parents she was struck to learn "other families" don't debate, discuss and theorise with each other.

Manics have reaffirmed my love of politics, Divine Comedy taught me what sort of books/art I'd like and Small Faces/the Goon Show have given me a sense of humour, a love of Edwardiana and taught me life is just a bowl of all bran. You wake up in the morning and it's there. Not to mention happydaystoytoylytownnewspaperandchucklysmileload.
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  #23  
Old 22-09-2012, 11:47
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Nicky hates everyone too much to ever be any good as a politician.

He might write lyrics that relate to politics past and present but I can't imagine him as an activist so what's the use?
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  #24  
Old 22-09-2012, 14:08
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Originally Posted by Takk View Post
Yeah, but for me it's not about it not being academic - I mean look at how academic Richey's references are on THB and earlier....they were very snobbish and academic in some ways. It's more about how opaque and cryptic they are, or in Nicky's latter years, simply opaque.
The Manics are not snobbish. The Holy Bible may not have been instantly accessible if American politics and the holocaust were unfamiliar to you but the lyrics or the band have never felt exclusive or clever....if anything they were anti the presumed snobbery around wanting to get an education, wanting to read, to learn, to be curious....they are all from regular working class backgrounds and made it feel like it was OK to want to learn and in the beginning mixed it all up with the glam ... which attracted many and Richey's self harming, anorexia....attracted more....in later years just the music has brought in many....I've known fans with political views at polar opposites to the Manics generally left leaning ones .... many people just don't pay much attention to the words. Which has always frustrated me but if they've not latched people on to them they've not alienated them neither. Maybe that's partly cos as people have said for all their politics they're not Bragg or Bono and join few charities and causes publicly and are a little reserved in interviews (bar the odd line from Nicky).
It's mattered to me cos it gave me the bit of confidence I needed to go ahead and apply for university after The Holy Bible came out. It's true that studying international relations, politics....did help to well not to decipher Richey's lyrics but to get some of the references and recognise some of the ideas he was drawing from. The band have also drawn from recent news events too and/or used them as influences so maybe that helped recognising some of the context. It helped but you don't need a degree in politics to understand.
Richey's lyrics often seemed overladen with ideas like essays where you want to make all your points but you're struggling to shape them into the structure of an essay or in his case a song. Nicky pares his ideas down ... so much so that usually it's his lyrics that I don't always understand or get the allusion

To me they've always been an intelligent band, a refreshing band, but the politics and the references have been there for you to take or leave and like others I couldn't really say what their individual politics are for sure in terms of say voting .... and that's how it should be....being encouraged to think is good but not being told what to think


And Nicky, well I used to read every interview but in recent years not so much just the odd one around an album release but can't say I've heard him banging on about his politics degree. He's mentioned it and that Richey got one too but today it seems to be something you're supposed to feel ashamed of and keep to yourself or y'bring out everyone else's paranoia's and fears. Not sure if it's something peculiar to Britain.
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  #25  
Old 22-09-2012, 14:15
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I think the whole thing around the politics degree, at least to me...is that having a politics degree means very little in how well your political opinions are formed, or frankly, how good they are, or how aware you are. I have friends with politics degrees, but they never talk about politics, aren't really very informed or interested...perhaps they were more interested in political structures, I don't know?

I guess it's just the assumption - I have a politics degree, therefore my opinions are more valid and worth listening to - which I have issue with.
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  #26  
Old 22-09-2012, 14:19
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Maybe it's just simply the case that not everyone feels confident/able to talk about/listen to political stuff, but most people have fallen in love with someone, hated their boss, had their heart broken and the thousand and one other "everyday" subjects that most bands/artists have sung about.

I don't think the Manics are snobbish, but there is a thin line between accessible and non-mainstream.
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  #27  
Old 22-09-2012, 14:58
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Originally Posted by Takk View Post
I think the whole thing around the politics degree, at least to me...is that having a politics degree means very little in how well your political opinions are formed, or frankly, how good they are, or how aware you are. I have friends with politics degrees, but they never talk about politics, aren't really very informed or interested...perhaps they were more interested in political structures, I don't know?

I guess it's just the assumption - I have a politics degree, therefore my opinions are more valid and worth listening to - which I have issue with.
He doesn't come across generally as arrogant, so saying he has a degree in politics could be defensive? Just a thought .... who would assume some guy in a band had anything considered to say .... so feeling defensive you trot out your qualification.
It's true a degree doesn't mean you have considered opinions - that was an illusion well crushed when I went....I was lucky to go just before they brought in fees, there's no way I would have been able to go but even then with a small grant it seemed surprising that so many seemed to be there just to fill time (maybe that's snobby) and makes me annoyed that now with tuition fees it is all down to who can afford to go and not who should be going

But if you are interested it can give you a little structure to your thought, it can introduce you to a range of writers and thinkers and opinions and an understanding of the context in which those writers write....it doesn't give you the 'right' opinions but it can help you to formulate a considered opinion, to formulate and articulate your thoughts.....a lot of people have good arguments to make they just can't articulate them and well maybe that's what education should be doing from the start and universities taking further
I just, to me he seems defensive....I wouldn't drop it into a conversation myself if feeling unsure cos I already know that some people around assume you're a snob, and feel a need to put you in your place (in my experience and with people around me at different times since)....not that it's got me heading up the UN or maybe anywhere I maybe hoped to get but it's helped me to sort my thoughts (except here obviously) and made me always curious

And the band have often made me feel less alone in feeling that way
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There is society, where none intrudes,
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And all I ask is a windy day with the white clouds flying,
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  #28  
Old 22-09-2012, 15:06
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Originally Posted by fromdespairtowhere View Post
Maybe it's just simply the case that not everyone feels confident/able to talk about/listen to political stuff, but most people have fallen in love with someone, hated their boss, had their heart broken and the thousand and one other "everyday" subjects that most bands/artists have sung about.

I don't think the Manics are snobbish, but there is a thin line between accessible and non-mainstream.
I don't really think they are snobbish intentionally, but there's times early on where they are so opaque, the result it seems to me is a little snobbish towards fans who haven't read everything they have. Now they are just vague.
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  #29  
Old 22-09-2012, 15:27
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Originally Posted by raven View Post
He doesn't come across generally as arrogant, so saying he has a degree in politics could be defensive? Just a thought .... who would assume some guy in a band had anything considered to say .... so feeling defensive you trot out your qualification.
It's true a degree doesn't mean you have considered opinions - that was an illusion well crushed when I went....I was lucky to go just before they brought in fees, there's no way I would have been able to go but even then with a small grant it seemed surprising that so many seemed to be there just to fill time (maybe that's snobby) and makes me annoyed that now with tuition fees it is all down to who can afford to go and not who should be going

But if you are interested it can give you a little structure to your thought, it can introduce you to a range of writers and thinkers and opinions and an understanding of the context in which those writers write....it doesn't give you the 'right' opinions but it can help you to formulate a considered opinion, to formulate and articulate your thoughts.....a lot of people have good arguments to make they just can't articulate them and well maybe that's what education should be doing from the start and universities taking further
I just, to me he seems defensive....I wouldn't drop it into a conversation myself if feeling unsure cos I already know that some people around assume you're a snob, and feel a need to put you in your place (in my experience and with people around me at different times since)....not that it's got me heading up the UN or maybe anywhere I maybe hoped to get but it's helped me to sort my thoughts (except here obviously) and made me always curious

And the band have often made me feel less alone in feeling that way
Surely its better now than ever for the poorer to go to Uni!! no one as poor as me but my son goes, it does'nt cost me a penny??
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  #30  
Old 22-09-2012, 15:40
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Surely its better now than ever for the poorer to go to Uni!! no one as poor as me but my son goes, it does'nt cost me a penny??
Don't see how...you could get a grant free at one point...now your son's gonna have a huge debt for the rest of his life (at least most people will)...maybe there's more immediate free money around, but long term I don't see how it's better.
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