EMG would have happened even if Richey hadn't disppeared

[Jimi A]

I've just come back of my lunch, unlocked my computer and the FD News has shared the Sony Legacy post of a Manics video.

JDB flicks his head back and does his passionate shout/sing and even though I have the sound muted on my work PC I can't help but hear "Ah Deesign. For-hor life". But then I'm suddenly jarred by seeing Richey in a leather jacket and two huge gold earrings. This isn't the Design For Life video; its From Despair To Where.

By not concentrating I just went on body language and it temporarily tricked me into hearing a song which would come only three years later. And it triggered a thought I've often had - Everything Must Go would have happened even if Richey did not disappear.


Its clear that there is a massive distinction between the caustic sterile post punk of The Holy Bible and the expansive warm anthemic rock of EMG. But the distance between EMG and Gold Against The Soul is not so great. Both were ambitious in scale, made experimental forays into use of keys (also common on Generation Terrorists) and strings. In fact, in a similar way that Futurology feels like a carry on from Lifeblood [I know many may disagree with me here] with Resistance Is Futile perhaps even a continuation on that, I would argue that EMG is a similar continuation on the aesthetic, sound and feel of GATS.

But what about Richey’s significant role in the band? There is no denying that THB was largely a vehicle for his lyrics and outlook at that time – but given his fragile mental state how sustainable was that? Until recently, Nicky underplayed his lyrical contributions to the third album and it would seem unlikely that Richey would have been the prime lyricist from 1994 onwards forever.

Furthermore, Richey’s main contribution was to provide lyrics and direction. That might seem quite reductionalist, but it would be remiss to not address Sean and James’ roles in actually writing the music. Don’t forget that the pair would the lyrics and run with it, and Richey’s lyrics were still used in a number of songs on the album.

Richey may have infamously said he wanted the next album to sounds like; "Pantera meets Nine Inch Nails meets Screamadelic”, but that doesn’t mean he would have actually gotten his way given the formidable will of his other band mates, that he actually meant this and it was just typical Manics hyperbole or that he wouldn’t have changed his mind as the recording sessions unfolded.

The myth as purported by the band is that they needed to break with everything that came before. But in reality, they didn’t really do that. They didn’t get rid of politics, dark subject matter, gravitas, literature. They didn’t get rid of their strident outsider persona, their general band setup or their attempts to create mainstream British rock with soul which educated and thrilled in equal measure.

Maybe they needed to think that there was a huge division between what they were doing at the time with what had come before. With Phillip Hall’s death, Richey’s disappearance plus elements like the drug use and self-harm must have created a huge gulf of stress and grief which they themselves have publicly declared took its toll. There was a need to shift away.

However, I’m suggesting that the shift in direction and style wasn’t as great as they made out when comparing the second and forth albums and that Richey, when shown how his lyrics could be used to infiltrate the mainstream, would have been more than onboard. Perhaps the only real difference is that the song and consequently the album title Everything Must Go would have not appeared as there wouldn’t be so great a psychology need to feel distanced from the past. A lie to themselves and the wider world they created just to get through the pain and keep going.

I’d like to hear what other people have to say about this. I know it’s a huge amount of conjecture.

[raven]

I'll jump in then

I think you definitely have a point Although Gold Against the Soul seems to be the least loved or most glossed over there is more of a link musically between that & Everything Must Go and beyond....you can see the relationship far more clearly between those 2 albums than with The Holy Bible which is the reason I'm been puzzled as to why the band themselves don't seem completely happy with Gold

I also agree that Everything Must Go was likely more of a psychological attempt to make a break with their past they are still the Manics not New Order to Joy Division that much is true but Everything included lyrics by Richey....lyrics they'd had to interpret to music not completely sure as to what Richey's reaction to the overall resulting album would have been - not Pantera no no stepped away from that road but what I mean is the album wasn't the total break the title might suggest....an attempted escape from their history maybe but with strings not quite cut loose. You're not being reductionist to say Richey wrote lyrics, had a hand in the direction/image/aesthetics of the band....that's a significant part of a band and some of his lyrics were still playing a role but as a band they were more reserved....not musically....who could have dreamed they'd come back with A Design for Life - a huge roar of defiance.....but whilst their music spoke of confidence their image, their direction had changed I felt, Richey's presence was missed and they've lost some of that sharp intelligence without meaning to insult their's ha but he did have a knack of packing and paring down complex ideas into a song....or maybe gave James the knack of packing them all in

As you say it's all conjecture....but I'm not sure they would have or could have made Everything Must Go if Richey had been around....I think maybe Journal gives an idea of what possibly Richey had in mind and Everything maybe what James had in mind musically.....hard to marry those two but then at risk of speaking out of turn I'm not sure Richey would have been well enough to continue in the band...he was clearly struggling....I'm not sure he could have been brought round to stepping away from NIN and bring in the strings.....but only cos I think his troubles were running too deep I don't know if he could have resolved his thoughts through the outlet of the band it wasn't all he was but it can prove a role that tries to define you or maybe you can feel a pressure to define/express your self through and to do so very publicly which might not have been a good thing....I'm rambling now sorry ....how it would all have panned out who can say....

[Suicide Aldi]

Hadnt they already written small black flowers, kevin carter, removables, no surface all feelinf and further away when hr vanished? I think they would have ended up with somthing similar to JFPL, melodic but with some rough edges to it.

[Europa Gluten Free]

This is such a complex question that I've thought about before many times.

The band say that Design For Life saved them during this period. I still think that song could have been written regardless of Richey being there or not. The lyric has nothing to do with Richey or his disappearance, and I think that James' imagining of the sound of it would have been the same. Regardless of the influence of Richey in the band up to that point, I think James is equally stubborn regarding the sound of the band, so if they were going somewhere with more strings and more space, they would have went there anyway.

But the overall album was completely driven by Richey's disappearance. My goodness, the song EMG itself is a direct message to the fans about the situation, so the album wouldn't even have had the same title or artwork or aesthetic.

The whole album and era wouldn't have had the same feeling and so I'd say they wouldn't have had the same impact. Although I now see the period that Richey was still with them as a chapter in the band's existence, rather than that being the time of the real band and them now continuing on without him, although they probably wouldn't have had the same commercial success, everything would have been a million times better with Richey still around. It's incredibly sad.

[Jimi A]

Richey had heard the demo for Kevin Carter when he drove JDB in the car and reportedly didn't like it but did enjoy Small Black Flowers - both were done acoustically. Given that Kevin Carter is perhaps closer to the post punk elements of The Holy Bible and Journal For Plague Lovers whereas Small Black Flowers is more anthemic rock, it does highlight the possibility he could be swayed.

JDB's influence in the early years has been significantly underplayed, and just because Sean is quiet to the public it doesn't mean he doesn't exert huge influence - his programming massive shaped the sound of Generation Terrorists. I was lucky enough to chat to JDB one afternoon/evening last year, and what I was stuck by is how forceful he can be. He’s damn intelligent, determined and will tell you in no uncertain terms what he thinks. Obviously I’m just a fan chatting for a bit but I could really see he was someone who gets what he wants.

I agree that Design For Life could still have been written, recorded and released with Richey. Its a song about the changing perception and rebranding of the working class, yet still retaining pride. Nicky is quoted as saying; “We were in the studio doing ‘Revol’ when we heard [Blur]’s ‘Girls And Boys’. And I thought, ‘Fuck, we’ve just written a song about group sex in the Politburo and really the biggest thing out there from an indie band is about going off on holiday in Ibiza. We couldn’t be fucking further from the musical explosion than we are now!” - so he was already thinking along those lines.

EMG the album did lean more to the emotive rather than the political which, perhaps, made it more relatable to a wider audience which accounts for some of its success. But then so did Gold Against The Soul - another album taking its title from a song contained within. Assuming that Richey contained to put a strain on the band (further conjecture, but I wonder if his disappearance came from a sense of guilt that he was causing this on friends & family as so felt the need to ‘leave’ – whatever that actually was), it wouldn’t seem unfeasible that the band would revert to a method or style that they already knew or felt familiar with which is what I’m suggesting is what they did.

Same as you guys, this isn’t a cohesive theory – just thinking out loud.

[Jimi A]

Just to clarify, I mentioned the bit about Blur because Nicky has also said he hated them at this period as they weren't working class, but were doing a mockney parody of if which fitted the times. I think to him, they reflected the laddish branding of working class culture which replaced dignity and pride.

[raven]

Originally Posted by Jimi A

Richey had heard the demo for Kevin Carter when he drove JDB in the car and reportedly didn't like it but did enjoy Small Black Flowers - both were done acoustically. Given that Kevin Carter is perhaps closer to the post punk elements of The Holy Bible and Journal For Plague Lovers whereas Small Black Flowers is more anthemic rock, it does highlight the possibility he could be swayed.

Pantera have done slow songs....Holy Bible had This Is Yesterday....all Nicky's I understand and I only listen to rarely cos it's the one that can make me cry. Barstewards.

Originally Posted by Jimi A

JDB's influence in the early years has been significantly underplayed, and just because Sean is quiet to the public it doesn't mean he doesn't exert huge influence - his programming massive shaped the sound of Generation Terrorists. I was lucky enough to chat to JDB one afternoon/evening last year, and what I was stuck by is how forceful he can be. He’s damn intelligent, determined and will tell you in no uncertain terms what he thinks. Obviously I’m just a fan chatting for a bit but I could really see he was someone who gets what he wants.

You're advised to be firm with stalkers.

(I'm joking) Sure that's how he comes over in interviews. People always misjudge when you're quiet

Originally Posted by Jimi A

I agree that Design For Life could still have been written, recorded and released with Richey. Its a song about the changing perception and rebranding of the working class, yet still retaining pride. Nicky is quoted as saying; “We were in the studio doing ‘Revol’ when we heard [Blur]’s ‘Girls And Boys’. And I thought, ‘Fuck, we’ve just written a song about group sex in the Politburo and really the biggest thing out there from an indie band is about going off on holiday in Ibiza. We couldn’t be fucking further from the musical explosion than we are now!” - so he was already thinking along those lines.

EMG the album did lean more to the emotive rather than the political which, perhaps, made it more relatable to a wider audience which accounts for some of its success. But then so did Gold Against The Soul - another album taking its title from a song contained within. Assuming that Richey contained to put a strain on the band (further conjecture, but I wonder if his disappearance came from a sense of guilt that he was causing this on friends & family as so felt the need to ‘leave’ – whatever that actually was), it wouldn’t seem unfeasible that the band would revert to a method or style that they already knew or felt familiar with which is what I’m suggesting is what they did.

Same as you guys, this isn’t a cohesive theory – just thinking out loud.

I do get what you're saying just personally I don't feel Everything Must Go would have come about with Richey around....putting aside the obvious songs about his disappearance....even just taking A Design for Life....I think it would have been difficult to merge their different directions and they were friends not just bandmates so feelings, emotions come into it....it was a very difficult time and I wouldn't conjecture that he left because of guilt or the band...I think for someone, anyone to leave so completely there are a number of things likely building up and maybe you feel a need to come to some sort of truce with yourself, depression can maybe make you lose yourself inside yourself....become very selfish - in the broadest sense of that word
All that's conjecture too....

Ah Blur....well, Blur irritated I think more because they were, well, pretentious, and they seemed to sneer at the working class rather than reflect them....of course some of it was manufactured...the whole Oasis vs Blur thing but they did irritate...mainly Damon's voice personally ...I know Liam ain't totally blessed in the vocals department but God gimmie Oasis over Blur anyday....but another topic...

[UEF]

Yeah it easily would've. He wrote a third(?) of it, and as you can see in JFPL, there are some quite 'nice' songs on there.

JFPL + SBF, KC, NSAF etc = what the fourth album would possibly have been if things hadn't turned awry.

Let that sink in for a moment!

[Son of Stopped]

Originally Posted by UEF

Yeah it easily would've. He wrote a third(?) of it, and as you can see in JFPL, there are some quite 'nice' songs on there.

JFPL + SBF, KC, NSAF etc = what the third album would possibly have been if things hadn't turned awry.

Let that sink in for a moment!

Fourth but yeah! That must drive the band mental knowing that could have happened.

[Anaconda Vice]

Originally Posted by Suicide Aldi

Hadnt they already written small black flowers, kevin carter, removables, no surface all feelinf and further away when hr vanished?

Allegedly Small Black Flowers, was the last thing he'd heard of a possible 4th album prior to him going. NSAF, rumours persisted for years that the outro featured him playing, taken from an early demo (since debunked).

A 4th album was taking shape, so maybe, as UEF says, a mix of what became JFPL, with those few Richey lyrics that made it onto EMG.

JFPL is like an alternate Manics of 1996, to me.

[Takk]

Yes, but it would have been quite different, and likely no design for life.

[Porco]

Yes, but no, and the album would have been called Ship of Theseus.

[Routine Builder]

I miss topics like these.....

[Jimi A]

Originally Posted by Porco

Yes, but no, and the album would have been called Ship of Theseus.

oooh, I often think about that. especially as every cell in the human body is meant to have been replaced after 7 - 10 years.

[Marconi Delorian]

Anyone ever made a playlist combining EMG era and JFPL songs? I know it's not likely to gel that well but could give a (very) rough idea of a potential 4th album had Richey stayed.