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-   -   Which EMG songs were written before Richey disappeared? (http://www.foreverdelayed.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=54397)

Kieslowski 27-09-2010 03:44
Urgh!!! What the fuck am I on about? My brain clearly hasn't recovered from last night. Of course it was Nicky that wrote the lyric. It doesn't even sound like a Richey lyric! I'm such a fucking numpty...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGreatPretender (Post 2096077)
Oh, I don't think Richey wrote NSAF. I remember reading in Q or something just after EMG came out that the song was written by Nicky while he was on tour and missing his wife (must have been written during the THB tour). As I recall, he mentioned it being 'a sort of love song to her'. So, it was neither written by or about Edwards.
That's Further Away, no? He wrote the lyrics to that on the THB tour, and has said it was the closest they'd come to a love song, but always denies that it was a fully-fledged love song.

nimrod 27-09-2010 17:49
Does anyone know whether the version of Small Black Flowers on the EMG 10th anniversary edition of EMG is the version that Richey heard the night before he disappeared? I could be wrong but am sure that on the way to the Embassy Hotel the night before he disappeared, James played him a demo of Small Black Flowers in the car??

River Boy 27-09-2010 18:00
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulTMA (Post 2096049)
I have to jump in on a thread where Further Away is getting bashed. Due to my own self-inflicted EMG over-exposure, I hadn't listened to the album in almost a decade when one night I drunkenly decided to play some tracks from it. Playing this song reduced me to horrible tears in a way I wasn't prepared for or expecting in the slightest. It's now my favourite from that album.
Pull yourself together man!

raven 27-09-2010 18:31
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Vorticist (Post 2096007)
What did James say exactly about it? Because as far as I can tell the rhythm guitar bit at the end of NSAF sounds very much like Richey's guitar playing (check out the Glastonbury 94 performances when Richey actually played, the tone and overall sound of his guitar sounds pretty close as far as tone goes to whats played at the end of NSAF.)
I can't remember which interview it was only that it must have been recent-ish - probably around the release of Journal as my memory's of limited capacity and that he was talking about some of the daftest rumours to have sprung up around Richey - and one of them was the rumour that Richey played guitar on No Surface....I remember it cos I'd heard the rumour and that was the first time I'd come across any comment on it from the band.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGreatPretender (Post 2096077)
Oh, I don't think Richey wrote NSAF. I remember reading in Q or something just after EMG came out that the song was written by Nicky while he was on tour and missing his wife (must have been written during the THB tour). As I recall, he mentioned it being 'a sort of love song to her'. So, it was neither written by or about Edwards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Vorticist (Post 2096079)
Yeah I'm fairly certain NSAF's lyrics would have had to been written post-Richey's disappearance, the lyrics in fact reflect that I believe. I was under the impression Richey's only possible involvement with that song was that they possibly had a take of Richey playing some guitar lying around (either that was unused or they were working on the music for the song before Richey's disappearance and Richey simply contributed a small guitar part for the song) and they decided to add it into the song's mix.
Think it was written in 94 through the Holy Bible tour when Nicky was feeling distanced from Richey who was unravelling, self harming a pretty bleak time. It feels like that too the distance from a close friend or the barrier self harm can put up, the anger the guilt

Nature's Discontent 27-09-2010 18:35
Quote:
Originally Posted by raven (Post 2096633)
Think it was written in 94 through the Holy Bible tour when Nicky was feeling distanced from Richey who was unravelling, self harming a pretty bleak time. It feels like that too the distance from a close friend or the barrier self harm can put up, the anger the guilt
I thought it was just about all the band members feeling for the first time that they were becoming distant from each other, living their own lives and such rather than being 100% committed to being in a band together.

raven 27-09-2010 19:48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nature's Discontent (Post 2096642)
I thought it was just about all the band members feeling for the first time that they were becoming distant from each other, living their own lives and such rather than being 100% committed to being in a band together.
Sure I just drew the impression it was about Richey from what's been said about that Holy Bible tour with Richey falling back into anorexic routines, with his self harming worrying Nicky with the general feeling that it wasn't fun anymore, touring may always be difficult - being away from home and that but Richey's illness was maybe drawing the band to the idea that the band may not beable to stay together much longer - that feels like the subtext that and having a close friend you feel unable to reach anymore The intensity of the friendship once shared such that it feels like a dream unreal now

Tetsuo 27-09-2010 20:52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kieslowski (Post 2093705)
This has been bugging me for the past few days. I've seen people claim in the past that even if Richey hadn't disappeared, EMG would still have sounded like it did since they had already written some of it before he went. But having just finished A Version Of Reason the other day, it reminded me that even the songs that Richey had apparently heard weren't necessarily how they ended up turning out. Here's how I think they break down:

Before he disappeared
Small Black Flowers That Grow In The Sky - I'm positive that Richey had heard and approved the music for this one
Removables - this was written soon after THB, I believe
No Surface All Feeling - since the final version supposedly contains bits of Richey playing guitar, then it's safe to say this was already written before he disappeared

After he disappeared
A Design For Life - the two-page poem it was based on was written in mid-1995
Enola/Alone - inspired by Nicky's wedding photo with Richey and Phillip, who had both now gone
Everything Must Go - about them carrying on after Richey
Australia - Nicky wanting to escape the events of 1995

Not sure
Elvis Impersonator - certainly begun when Richey was around, but since Nicky had to finish off the words himself, then presumably the music wasn't finished either - perhaps explaining the massive musical difference between the first verse and the rest of the song?
Kevin Carter - a Richey lyric, but I believe he didn't like the first "draft" James did, and I think I've read that the final version was what James thought Richey would have liked, i.e. Richey never actually heard the version that went on to be recorded
The Girl Who Wanted To Be God - from the Raindrops sessions, so certainly one of the earliest songs written, and supposed to be the one lyric the actually sat down and co-wrote, but does anyone know if the music was written before Richey disappeared?
Interiors - can't recall seeing anything that suggests when this was written - anyone know?
Further Away - a Nicky lyric from on tour in 1994, but I have no idea if the music itself was written around then. Being the weakest track on the album, I can imagine it perhaps being a late inclusion

Can anyone shed any light on this? I'm basically trying to figure out if EMG could have ended up being an album I would have been more happy with, because I feel that the ones that were definitely post-Richey songs pretty much define the sound of the album.
On Kevin Carter Richey apparently said it sounded "a bit salsa".
James played Richey a cassette tape demo of Small Black Flowers just acoustic.

The documentary interviews on the Anniversary edition of Everything Must Go shed some light on this issue. James spoke of Richey's quest for "Screamadelica played by Pantera and how that was "just Nine Inch Nails". Given that Kevin Carter was apparently sounding a bit salsa I suspect that's the direction James was really wanting to push into ie. more melody.

If they had've followed up the Holy Bible with the Holy Bible II, the same screeching guitars, twisted verses and overall In Utero sound you probably wouldn't have heard of the Manics today. I can't understand this "I'm not happy with the sound of X-album" stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deets (Post 2093789)
yes, because Removables or A Girl Who Wanted To Be God are. but more Removables.

some quotes
@ Elvis Impersonator
Nicky: Richey wrote a draft and it sounded a bit like the group Wire. Me and Sean hated it. There weren't many lyrics anyway. Then I added a verse. I never spoke to Richey about what the original idea was. I suppose it's about kids wearing American basketball tops and stuff.

@ Removables
Nicky: That was written about three years ago. It's the oldest song on there. It was written befor The Holy Bible, and we've finally knocked it into shape. We'd forgotten about this - and then we find a bit of a Nirvana/MTV Unplugged vibe to it, being honest. It was completely done live in the studio. We've had to wait six years (sic!) but we finally played it together in the studio.

Written two years ago when Edwards was heavily into the lyrics of Kurt Cobain. Bradfield and Moore have provided a fitting Nirvana Unplugged backing. A one-take, live studio recording. - from Select Mag June 1996 by Andrew Male

all I could find atm, hope it helps.
Where did them quotes come from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Vorticist (Post 2096007)
What did James say exactly about it? Because as far as I can tell the rhythm guitar bit at the end of NSAF sounds very much like Richey's guitar playing (check out the Glastonbury 94 performances when Richey actually played, the tone and overall sound of his guitar sounds pretty close as far as tone goes to whats played at the end of NSAF.)

I think there's some of the original demo left on the final version of No Surface isn't there?

nocultureicons 27-09-2010 21:15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tetsuo (Post 2096873)
I think there's some of the original demo left on the final version of No Surface isn't there?
I reckon that's just a myth, but then there is an unusual frequency over the solo at the end, almost like the 'sound' a TV makes even when it's muted.

Kieslowski 27-09-2010 23:39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tetsuo (Post 2096873)
If they had've followed up the Holy Bible with the Holy Bible II, the same screeching guitars, twisted verses and overall In Utero sound you probably wouldn't have heard of the Manics today. I can't understand this "I'm not happy with the sound of X-album" stuff.
Nah, THB II would have been awful (well, not awful but it would have been a poor man's THB), but I don't think that could have been a possibility anyway. However, I'm not a fan of EMG, but I've always suspected that there was the makings of a much more interesting album (interesting to me, at least) if you strip out the arena rock songs like Australia, Further Away and Enola/Alone, so the purpose of this thread was to try and determine just how feasible that would have been.

But I suppose that without access to the demos they had done before Richey disappeared, there's just no way of knowing for sure how his disappearance truly affected James and Sean's song-writing, or if that really is the direction they were already headed.

Tetsuo 27-09-2010 23:50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kieslowski (Post 2097115)
Nah, THB II would have been awful (well, not awful but it would have been a poor man's THB), but I don't think that could have been a possibility anyway. However, I'm not a fan of EMG, but I've always suspected that there was the makings of a much more interesting album (interesting to me, at least) if you strip out the arena rock songs like Australia, Further Away and Enola/Alone, so the purpose of this thread was to try and determine just how feasible that would have been.

But I suppose that without access to the demos they had done before Richey disappeared, there's just no way of knowing for sure how his disappearance truly affected James and Sean's song-writing, or if that really is the direction they were already headed.
I think Kevin Carter sums it up to be honest. Sean and James were headed in that direction and Richey didn't seem too approving preferring the Nine Inch Nails inside a food processor mixed in with broken glass and screws. "Sounds a bit salsa" doesn't read like an endorsement in my opinion.

deadmartyr 28-09-2010 12:35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tetsuo (Post 2097119)
"Sounds a bit salsa" doesn't read like an endorsement in my opinion.
Unless it set a spark off in his head and he decided he wanted to leave the band and get into salsa dancing.

ulstermanic 28-09-2010 12:42
INteresting thread. I like to read all this sort of stuff. I think with the internet revolution having occurred post 1996, then we are piecing together some of this.

Had we had a forum such as this back in 1995 or 1996 then the discussions would have been made around the time of the album's release and indeed more magazine, TV and radio interviews would have been posted by forum members giving more details on each song.

To me, EMG is a great album, but doesnt actually fit together as an "album", its almost like a collection of songs from a period of 4 - 5 years all stuck together. The stark contrast from something as uplifting as Australia (good enough once upon a time to be played on Match of The day when great goals went in...) compared with the dreamlike delusion of Further Away (which by the way is a great song in my opinion).

Weakest song on the album is either Elvis Impersonator or EMG itself (a throwaway pop song) in my opinion.

Richey would have hated A Design For Life I reckon, ironic given that is is possibly the bands biggest selling single (pretty sure it sold more than Tolerate and Masses ATC).

Apart from Journal For Plague Lovers, which other post - EMG songs are attributed in some way to Richey? (i.e. he wrote some of the lyric)

franny 28-09-2010 12:55
Picturesque uses some of All Is Vanity. I think that's it.

BrianPowell 28-09-2010 13:01
So there was a chance that some Journal For Plague Lovers lyrics could have ended up on Everything Must Go or vice versa.

Siouxsie Sway 28-09-2010 13:07
Quote:
Originally Posted by deadmartyr (Post 2093760)
This is Yesterday's a good song, but I do skip it sometimes as although having a lighter moment in the album's a good thing, the change is sometimes a bit too jarring. I prefer most songs on the album to it though.
This Is Yesterday is so insanely beautiful. it's a tie between that and Faster of my fav THB-songs.

franny 28-09-2010 13:08
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianPowell (Post 2097362)
So there was a chance that some Journal For Plague Lovers lyrics could have ended up on Everything Must Go or vice versa.
No the JFPL lyrics came from the same folder, the one marked 'opulence', JFPL was the first time they used those words save Picturesque.

Napoleon Bonaparte 28-09-2010 13:20
Might be off on a slight tangent but I think lyrics like Jackie Collins & Stephen Hawking inspired Wire. Things like Rendition & Patsy, Entertainment & Don't Be Evil utilise the same irony laced tone.

three_days 28-09-2010 13:23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Napoleon Bonaparte (Post 2097391)
Might be off on a slight tangent but I think lyrics like Jackie Collins & Stephen Hawking inspired Wire. Things like Rendition & Patsy, Entertainment & Don't Be Evil utilise the same irony laced tone.
I don't disagree, Nicky & Richey are more similar as lyricists as some suggest (eg. the way they both reference outside media).

Also Nicky's stated outright that in SATT (the song) he was using Richey's super-wordy style, so he's probably influenced in other ways too.

raven 28-09-2010 17:35
Quote:
Originally Posted by ulstermanic (Post 2097350)
Richey would have hated A Design For Life I reckon, ironic given that is is possibly the bands biggest selling single (pretty sure it sold more than Tolerate and Masses ATC).
Why? Who can say music-wise for it does mark a departure from earlier songs although it fits the lyrics perfectly & the lyrics pretty much sum up all the band have really stood for .... we can't know for sure what he'd have made of it but what's not to love. The band got a song with the line Libraries gave us power in at number 2.......he must have dreamt of such a day

Tetsuo 28-09-2010 19:19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Napoleon Bonaparte (Post 2097391)
Might be off on a slight tangent but I think lyrics like Jackie Collins & Stephen Hawking inspired Wire. Things like Rendition & Patsy, Entertainment & Don't Be Evil utilise the same irony laced tone.
Patsy does resemble some of the slightly odd humour found on the Journal songs. Good point.

nimrod 29-09-2010 20:35
This part of the band's career has always interested me the most - I always find it pretty amazing that the band who were belting out the likes of 'White America' at the Astoria in Dec 94, were recording stuff like 'Dead Passive' only months later. The difference in musical style couldn't be greater

franny 29-09-2010 20:45
It's why the Manics are so amazing, their creativity comes in so many forms, Richey's condition must have affected their musical style massively, or maybe THB was a release of angry energy that wasn't there for EMG.

nimrod 06-10-2010 16:43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kieslowski (Post 2093705)
This has been bugging me for the past few days. I've seen people claim in the past that even if Richey hadn't disappeared, EMG would still have sounded like it did since they had already written some of it before he went. But having just finished A Version Of Reason the other day, it reminded me that even the songs that Richey had apparently heard weren't necessarily how they ended up turning out. Here's how I think they break down:

Before he disappeared
Small Black Flowers That Grow In The Sky - I'm positive that Richey had heard and approved the music for this one
Removables - this was written soon after THB, I believe
No Surface All Feeling - since the final version supposedly contains bits of Richey playing guitar, then it's safe to say this was already written before he disappeared

After he disappeared
A Design For Life - the two-page poem it was based on was written in mid-1995
Enola/Alone - inspired by Nicky's wedding photo with Richey and Phillip, who had both now gone
Everything Must Go - about them carrying on after Richey
Australia - Nicky wanting to escape the events of 1995

Not sure
Elvis Impersonator - certainly begun when Richey was around, but since Nicky had to finish off the words himself, then presumably the music wasn't finished either - perhaps explaining the massive musical difference between the first verse and the rest of the song?
Kevin Carter - a Richey lyric, but I believe he didn't like the first "draft" James did, and I think I've read that the final version was what James thought Richey would have liked, i.e. Richey never actually heard the version that went on to be recorded
The Girl Who Wanted To Be God - from the Raindrops sessions, so certainly one of the earliest songs written, and supposed to be the one lyric the actually sat down and co-wrote, but does anyone know if the music was written before Richey disappeared?
Interiors - can't recall seeing anything that suggests when this was written - anyone know?
Further Away - a Nicky lyric from on tour in 1994, but I have no idea if the music itself was written around then. Being the weakest track on the album, I can imagine it perhaps being a late inclusion

Can anyone shed any light on this? I'm basically trying to figure out if EMG could have ended up being an album I would have been more happy with, because I feel that the ones that were definitely post-Richey songs pretty much define the sound of the album.
The Girl Who Wanted To Be God is an interesting one - it was one of the earliest tracks recorded, think it was in July 95 at Real World studio's, along with the 'poppier' take of Australia which was on EMG 10th anniversary. But the band weren't keen on Stephen Hague's production, so went to Mike Hedges instead. Have always assumed that Richey must have heard a demo of this track, as otherwise they wouldn't have used it on the album, but its interesting because I find it hard to believe that Richey would have been that keen on it, based on where he was at musically in early 95.
For the record I think its massively underrated, and would stand happily alongside many of their singles in a setlist today

nimrod 06-10-2010 16:47
Quote:
Originally Posted by nimrod (Post 2106594)
The Girl Who Wanted To Be God is an interesting one - it was one of the earliest tracks recorded, think it was in July 95 at Real World studio's, along with the 'poppier' take of Australia which was on EMG 10th anniversary. But the band weren't keen on Stephen Hague's production, so went to Mike Hedges instead. Have always assumed that Richey must have heard a demo of this track, as otherwise they wouldn't have used it on the album, but its interesting because I find it hard to believe that Richey would have been that keen on it, based on where he was at musically in early 95.
For the record I think its massively underrated, and would stand happily alongside many of their singles in a setlist today
Plus, you can sing the chorus of Girl Who Wanted To Be God along to the opening guitar riff of Hazelton Avenue!! Forget Kravitz, they copied themselves!

darkanddivine 07-10-2010 12:02
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Vorticist (Post 2096007)
What did James say exactly about it? Because as far as I can tell the rhythm guitar bit at the end of NSAF sounds very much like Richey's guitar playing (check out the Glastonbury 94 performances when Richey actually played, the tone and overall sound of his guitar sounds pretty close as far as tone goes to whats played at the end of NSAF.)
This from what I can gather is one of those songs where bits of the demo were kept. From what I know, Richey does play on the demo, however when it came to the EMG sessions, James added the ending onto the track. Initially it would seem Richey appears on the choruses and intro of the final track, certainly not in the verses or the ending.

Listening to the demo, tracks have definitely been cut into the final version, the choruses are hugely beefed up, which would suggest James layered it somewhat with more of his own tracks. Even if Richey does play on this it would be hard to hear it in the layers of guitars anyhow.

nimrod 06-08-2014 22:23
Coming back to this thread a looong time later having just listened to the EMG special edition cd again.

Re:the demo of 'Small Black Flowers' - as this is purely accoustic with no overdubs, I assume that this must be the version that Richey heard in James' car the day before he disappeared

Bobafettish 06-08-2014 22:51
One thing that did interest me, didn't James say on the last tour that Enola/Alone was gonna be considered as the lead single, before Design For Life took off (at Wolves I think), which kinda went against my understanding that ADFL was the first thing they wrote and was always seen as their comeback?
I could be mis-remembering

Radiomanic 07-08-2014 19:05
No One Knows What Its Like To Be Me sounds as though it was recorded early on, musically it's very THB-era (especially the demo version) and i'm sure they once said it was written during that albums tour of before possibly. Further Away does too in demo form, certainly lyrically that one comes from 1994.

Would be good to know exactly what came before Feb 1995 and what came after. They definitely said around the time in one interview that they were going to go for something more melodic on the 4th album, despite Richey's crazy Screamadelica/Pantera wishes. Judge Yourself was supposed to be a one-off anyway.

nimrod 07-08-2014 23:13
I'm fairly sure that they spent a few days at the House In The Woods studios in early 95 so you'd think that a fair few demo's would have been made there in Richey's presence.

Does anyone know whether any of the tracks on the Everything Must Go bonus cd date from those sessions?

Also on the subject of Judge Yrself - did they re-record this for the Lipstick Traces album or is the version on there the 1995 original?

I bet Nicky has all of this information documented somewhere!!

UEF 08-08-2014 07:06
Judge YrSelf was partially or wholly redone, I think.

andy 08-08-2014 17:54
Quote:
Originally Posted by UEF (Post 2612935)
Judge YrSelf was partially or wholly redone, I think.
Can I used this opportunity to say that song is possibly the worst manics song ever

boring and stale by the second listen

Takk 08-08-2014 19:35
Quote:
Originally Posted by raven (Post 2097638)
Why? Who can say music-wise for it does mark a departure from earlier songs although it fits the lyrics perfectly & the lyrics pretty much sum up all the band have really stood for .... we can't know for sure what he'd have made of it but what's not to love. The band got a song with the line Libraries gave us power in at number 2.......he must have dreamt of such a day
Everyone always says they know what richey would have thought, but personally I think he and the band would have probably had similar ideas. They grew up together, spent so much time together...


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