I'm not 'narked' about that in any way shape or form. I'm just saying it was at that point that I got that the band didn't care about their fans. That's fine, you don't need to like an artist to appreciate their art.

I'm 'narked' about them producing crap muzak for the last few years and the huge decline in quality of their live shows .

I'd have said it sounds much more like it's not war crossed with orwellian with James sounding more bored (and even a bit mumbly) and the only high point being it didn't have the steps version of a Chic sample in it.

I'd say the same about TUVL. You may not like it but it had a different sound from the previous albums, had a clear concept and was trying to say something. None of it is particularly commercial, Orwellian may have a big banging tune but the lyrics were pretty off putting to a lot of people. And the rest of it was even more downbeat.

To me, TUVL sounds like a collection of pastiches, if the clear concept and message was: this is what it would sound like if the manics played covers of other commerically successful bands discarded b-sides even then it was still insipid with possibly Blank Diary Entry getting a bit of a reprieve but that being cancelled out by the moaning bullshit pink floyd homage in into the waves of love.

If that wasn't a hot take, I don't know what is.

After watching the latest live videos of Motorcycle Emptiness and Decline & Fall; I've got the impression that live quality has gone to the bottom of their career, I mean, it's not about the new music it is just about the sound quality as a band. Bad Bad.

They don't sound like one and it feels there is no coherence at all. Not able to create a proper atmosphere even for a classic such as ME. I don't know what is happening. I feel they need to get more rehearsals and a couple of extra musicians, not to mention a change in the f*** keyboard guy! Souns poor and shabby.

It pains me a lot to say these words about them because I fucking love them. They are my favourite band and it hurts to see them going that way. Sadly, it's a clear decline & fall.

noooo, last thing they need is more musicians on the stage. All they've ever needed is the three of them and some background Nasmyth on a few tracks. The equation is simple, lazy James = shit live show. The live decline started after lifeblood when they brought in the extra guitarist and has just gotten worse and worse (with pauses for 3 piece gigs) and now is at the point where James lets him play key riffs instead of just background while he poses in front of the mic and emotes like a pudgy Del Boy pretending to be Jon Bon Jovi in 1987 singing 'Never Say Goodbye'.

I'm not in Hitler's bunker with the Soviet Army closing in*, but...
I think the R2 live show didn't have their sound mixer on the job. It was just a bad photograph out of millions took. Although the YLAINE lyrics stuff was funny.
Honestly, when we hear the album it'll all click into place.
*=Or updated reference Chemical Ali denying approaching coalition troops.

One thing that would help live is for Wayne to stop singing. I imagine that's the one thing we can all agree on. It would also give James more freedom to improvise, should he suddenly decide to change the order of the lyrics for some no doubt artistically valid reason.

And I thought I used to be a keyboard warrior on here 10 years ago around PFAYM time when I was proevpete! Miss Dex, Gutless, Chubby Bono and all the old crew!

Honestly, to me it sounds like the second side of RiF, the mix of PFAYM-pop and synths, only without the songwriting chops. It just sounds like a hook in search of a song, which is how I feel about some of TUVL as well. As if creating that guitar / piano riff was where 95% of the effort went, and then the rest was just bolted on.

I love this band.

It's interesting to me how differently we feel about different eras of the band. I think I'm a bit older than the average for this forum, and maybe that's why TUVL and Decline and Fall resonate with me - I can feel the band aging with me and soundtracking my life in a way that fits the age I am now, just as THB did when I was 19 and Lifeblood when I was 29.

TUVL was for me one of the best eras I've lived through as a fan, possibly heightened by the joy of returning to gigs after COVID. But they were definitely on amazing form and the Cardiff and Wembley shows are amongst my favourites of all of their gigs. And they definitely had more punch and vigour compared to the shows I saw on the RIF era. There's no steep decline as far as I'm concerned, just the changes that come with getting older, to which I can strongly relate.

Decline and Fall is such a joy to listen to, and I think I like it better than any of the lead singles of the past decade or so. I can't wait for the new album :)

I totally get your point but you may have missed part of mine:

I've felt for years that the band believes fans want this commercial anthem sound, and the hardcore THB/JFPL/b-sides fans are about ten people who just want nihilistic inaccessible noise all the time.

They're interesting and inspired when they ignore what they think we want.

This is a good take, I'd agree there, and it is reflected in the fact that the three albums you mentioned there are the ones I'd pick as their most interesting and strong since Lifeblood.

So I guess we'll see what album #15 brings. I don't like Decline and Fall but there are other songs to come.

I think enthusiastic reactions to whatever they keep releasing are a major part of the problem. They've gotten complacent. No matter what cheesy crap they record, we're gonna buy it anyway. No matter how lazy they look on stage, the house is always gonna be full. And don't get me wrong, they're still my favorite band of all time, but I do think a further decline in sales and a slew of really BAD bad reviews would get them back on the right track. Or disband, whatever.