No Surface lyrics query

[Judge_yrself]

At the risk of sounding stupid - a risk I take regularly - I've got a query about the lyrics to No Surface All Feeling.

I've always understood what the song was about i.e. Nicky's feelings about the band post THB but just pre-Richie's disappearence. But I've never really understood what Nicky was getting at with this bit:

"Nothing here but the stains on my teeth*
No not blood just liquid from you*
I only wish it was the truth"

Would anyone please be kind enough to explain what the bloody hell the Wire was going on about here?😂

[Son of Stopped]

I don't think I've ever read an explanation of these lyrics. It's usually only talked about Richey on guitar and the recording process as opposed to specific meanings of the lyrics.
I think it's great and for all I know a reference to Richey waking up with blood on his teeth? (But NSAF being recorded?), a memory of one of their relatives waking up with blood on their teeth?
Or... How about the band post THB gig awoke crashed on Hotel bed after final date drink, to look in the mirror and see the winestains on teeth and go "I'm a vampire! Look! Look James, I've got blood on my teeth! James? James! I've got blood on my teeth I'm a vampire!"?

[Judge_yrself]

"I'm a vampire, James! Quick, back to the catacombs!" ��

It's such a strange couple of lines. Not blood but liquid, and wishing it was the truth...I thought it was possibly some homoerotic fantasy the first couple of times but then I thought better of it

[Europa Gluten Free]

I think there is a bit of Manics' fan misperception that James receives complete lyrics set in stone and writes music to it. I remember the uproar with the JFPL book exposing how the band would often rearrange lyrics to fit in with the music. How dare James cut and paste Richey's lyrics!!! But this is likely what happens 90% of the time. Just because Wire has nicely handwritten complete lyrics on pages with stickers and hearts on them doesn't necessarily mean that that is how they were first given to James and Sean. So, in an nutshell, I'm guessing that the NSAF lines mean very little and were probably fitted in to the melody. As sacrosanct as that might be to the average Manics obsessive.

[raven]

It was written as I understand by Nicky for Richey. Probably the most emotionally open that Nicky's been about his friend. Written obviously whilst he was still around so it's not a looking back but things were clearly stressful in the last few months
They've spoken and said that much. Also that Sean wrote the music...in reference to an another thread asking what he wrote....whilst trying to teach Richey how to play Come As You Are (gave up, giggle) a bit of Pumpkins-esque which Richey loved but they've commented that he'd maybe missed the emotional side ...

I can't recall them breaking down the lyrics but guess it could refer to either feeling like you've drained the life out of someone though you don't want to admit it....or, just to me, I remember Nicky talking of the stress and checking Richey for signs of self harming....that whereas once he'd been open on that last tour he'd started to try and hide it....it's not blood, just liquid....dismissive but they know the truth. But that last bit is purely what it brought to my mind and not official interpreting

[Judge_yrself]

Originally Posted by raven

I can't recall them breaking down the lyrics but guess it could refer to either feeling like you've drained the life out of someone though you don't want to admit it....or, just to me, I remember Nicky talking of the stress and checking Richey for signs of self harming....that whereas once he'd been open on that last tour he'd started to try and hide it....it's not blood, just liquid....dismissive but they know the truth. But that last bit is purely what it brought to my mind and not official interpreting

The checking Richey for signs of self harning thing makes total sense and I feel very silly for it not occuring to me before. I remember Nicky talking about putting Richey to bed and lifting up his top to check for fresh cuts. Very sad.

The reference to liquid...maybe referring to vodka? I seem to remember reading an interview with Nicky where he referred to Richey literally sweating alcohol at points. So, "no not blood just liquid from you": I wish you were just drunk instead of cutting yourself? Which is a grim thing to say but I guess if you have a loved one in that position you'll take any little victories you can get.

[starfucker]

Originally Posted by raven

It was written as I understand by Nicky for Richey. Probably the most emotionally open that Nicky's been about his friend. Written obviously whilst he was still around so it's not a looking back but things were clearly stressful in the last few months
They've spoken and said that much. Also that Sean wrote the music...in reference to an another thread asking what he wrote....whilst trying to teach Richey how to play Come As You Are (gave up, giggle) a bit of Pumpkins-esque which Richey loved but they've commented that he'd maybe missed the emotional side ...

I can't recall them breaking down the lyrics but guess it could refer to either feeling like you've drained the life out of someone though you don't want to admit it....or, just to me, I remember Nicky talking of the stress and checking Richey for signs of self harming....that whereas once he'd been open on that last tour he'd started to try and hide it....it's not blood, just liquid....dismissive but they know the truth. But that last bit is purely what it brought to my mind and not official interpreting

I'd never even considered this lyric to be about self-harm until I read this thread but it does make perfect sense what you are saying here. I guess, personally, I'd never really studied or analysed the words before.

I just listened to it for the first time in a while after reading this and the line, "It makes me angry, ashamed but really alive" hit me in the face as those three things: anger, shame and alive are three of the strongest emotions I have personally experienced and would associate with self-harm. Anger at something (whatever that something happened to be) to trigger the behaviour, then, afterwards the shame of realising what I'd just done.

Now, I'm inclined to interpret that line as something Richey once said to Nicky by means of explanation why he self-harmed.

[Glass Angel]

^ "it may have worked but at what price"

Yes, definitely how I feel about my scars...

[Dac X Lee]

I might be stretching this a bit but maybe...

The blood would be all those times they'd get beaten in the very beginning of their career, or when one would take a punch to defend the other (any member of the band, not strictly about Nicky and Richey).
The liquid from him could be alcohol, addressing Richey's alcoholic problems (plus, they'd share some of it too most likely, drinking together).
Wishing that the happiness were the truth. That those smiles and good times wouldn't have to end up in tragedy.

[UEF]

An early attempt at writing a Muse lyric I think - absolute cobblers

[Porco]

I had wondered myself about these lyrics from time to time. I don’t really know either.

With the line before those quoted here, “Just one thing before I get to sleep” it does sound like a kind of vampyric interpretation is possible. Sleep, teeth, blood ...

I wonder if the “liquid” could be ‘creative juices’ - Nicky referring to his collaborative lyric writing with Richey, lamenting that the intelligence and passion that in their earlier days sometimes went too far looking back with some distance (“Maybe richer maybe wiser / Seems so easy to not go too far”) but that in the moment “it felt like dreaming”, whether very literally involving the blood of the infamous ‘4 Real’ incident, or else just metaphorically, as in that phrase of ‘blood, sweat and tears’ meaning earnest, for real genuine creativity and passion, and Nicky self-deprecatingly indicating he felt like he fed upon Richey’s creativity vampyrically, wishing that the metaphor was only applicable metaphorically, that the creativity could have been the same without the attendant self-harm.

“The stains on my teeth” could be both to do with a vampyric metaphor but also and extreme metaphor referring to age... when you think of a skeleton, the teeth are really all that remain that were exposed during the person’s life - very literally no surface in that sense, there was no muscle or skin covering them, and so the stains upon them tell a story of the past unlike anything else - teeth are used to identify people when necessary from dental records - a sense of permanence in a world where almost everything else has changed since an earlier, different time.

Or that could all be total rubbish! Interesting to wonder though.

[UEF]

http://thequietus.com/articles/20332...ew-simon-price

JDB: It's really strange doing this song live, every night, when you get to the line 'What's the point in always looking back, when all you see is more and more junk?', and you can see people's faces, like [Nelson Muntz laugh] 'Ha-haa, gotcha!'

NW: You look at the front row and they're almost laughing, 'That's exactly what you're doing!'

So, this song had already been knocking around, in Richey's time?

NW: I remember we were doing this fucking gigantic Carnival Against The Nazis thing in Brockwell Park in South London, and it was fucking massive, we had no idea what we were doing at that point, we were out of our minds, we were really disconnected. I think 'Faster' had just come out, because we were in Holy Bible gear, and there was that haunting picture of Richey with bars that make it look like he's in prison. And we had a rehearsal on this fucking industrial estate in South London. And we did 'No Surface All Feeling'. And I thought 'Fuck me, that really sounds like a Smashing Pumpkins song, with our take on it.' And I'd written all the lyrics. So the lyric is nothing to do with what happened post-Richey's disappearance at all, because it was already written when he was around. But I was quite blown away by it, because it had that classic quiet/loud Pixies ethos. So, all the songs that were fully-formed, written by me and by Richey, perhaps never would have made it if it wasn't for 'A Design For Life'.

http://members.home.nl/gerhardnijenhuis/msp/tbtemg2.htm

Nicky: "It was just before he left. We'd done 'Further Away', 'No Surface, All Feeling' and 'Small Black Flowers...', and in addition, 'Elvis Impersonator' had been conceived. 'Kevin Carter' was done, and James had played it to Richey in the bedroom - but I don't think Richey ever heard it properly."
James: "There were a few songs I'd only played on an acoustic. They were 'Kevin Carter' and 'The Girl Who Wanted To Be God'. So when we were putting the album together, and we came to 'No Surface, All Feeling', we decided to use the demo. Only the vocals and the end bit were redone.
"Generally, as far as the music goes, I was definitely obsessed with uplifting people after 'The Holy Bible' - I felt that we deserved to give ourselves a bit of a favour, and actually be able to look back, and think that any sense of fun or happiness wasn't gonna be compromised by the music. We deserved to try and uplift ourselves by the music. That was my only agenda."
Nicky: "You might say that was our 'tribute' to Richey."

[Jimi A]

I always took it as a sign of regret from Nicky about the cognitive dissonance he had towards Richey and the subsequent guilt after the disappearence.

Rather than recognising that his best friend was in emotional pain and suffering from mental health problems that he exhibited through obvious self harm, Nicky was able to convince himself that it was all rock and roll theatrics.

That maybe at the time it felt like dreaming for Nicky, that Richey hasn't really done anything that significant because its just liquid and not blood, that it was all just the fun of being in the band and there isn't any real consquences more important than just vanity and making sure you look good for the camera. So, after all the craziness of the gigs at night, getting rid of the stains on his (and maybe Richey's due to all the fags) teeth was more important than realising that he needed to look after his friend.

I don't know if you've ever had to deal with grief early on in life. I don't mean losing an elderly relative as that is quite natural in a way. I mean losing a best friend way before their time. It changes you. The grief of the loss of someone like that and guilt that comes with recognising the mistakes you made from being so young really saps you and changes the way you feel forever. It makes the world feel brittle and thin, with little depth and without substance. Things that were certain become temporary, and everything appears to just be a 'surface' with little or nothing tangible to it. Whilst your feelings and negative perception become all consuming.

Maybe I'm projecting my own experiences onto the song. But that is what I've always taken from it.

[Glass Angel]

Originally Posted by Jimi A

I don't know if you've ever had to deal with grief early on in life. I don't mean losing an elderly relative as that is quite natural in a way. I mean losing a best friend way before their time. It changes you. The grief of the loss of someone like that and guilt that comes with recognising the mistakes you made from being so young really saps you and changes the way you feel forever. It makes the world feel brittle and thin, with little depth and without substance. Things that were certain become temporary, and everything appears to just be a 'surface' with little or nothing tangible to it. Whilst your feelings and negative perception become all consuming.

Maybe I'm projecting my own experiences onto the song. But that is what I've always taken from it.

I'm sorry for your loss.

My friend didn't die, but I still lost her to anorexia. Some combination of malnutrition, ECT and cardiac arrest caused cognitive problems, and she literally wasn't the same person any more. Would forget that I phoned, would accuse me of abandoning her when I phoned twice a week, every week. I was only 19 and couldn't keep up. Still feel guilty.

I've always loved No Surface All Feeling (my hand-knitted Manics tank says 'all you see is more and more junk'), but it does seem a sad song, and I love these interpretations.

[raven]

Originally Posted by Jimi A

I always took it as a sign of regret from Nicky about the cognitive dissonance he had towards Richey and the subsequent guilt after the disappearence.

Rather than recognising that his best friend was in emotional pain and suffering from mental health problems that he exhibited through obvious self harm, Nicky was able to convince himself that it was all rock and roll theatrics.

That maybe at the time it felt like dreaming for Nicky, that Richey hasn't really done anything that significant because its just liquid and not blood, that it was all just the fun of being in the band and there isn't any real consquences more important than just vanity and making sure you look good for the camera. So, after all the craziness of the gigs at night, getting rid of the stains on his (and maybe Richey's due to all the fags) teeth was more important than realising that he needed to look after his friend.

I don't know if you've ever had to deal with grief early on in life. I don't mean losing an elderly relative as that is quite natural in a way. I mean losing a best friend way before their time. It changes you. The grief of the loss of someone like that and guilt that comes with recognising the mistakes you made from being so young really saps you and changes the way you feel forever. It makes the world feel brittle and thin, with little depth and without substance. Things that were certain become temporary, and everything appears to just be a 'surface' with little or nothing tangible to it. Whilst your feelings and negative perception become all consuming.

Maybe I'm projecting my own experiences onto the song. But that is what I've always taken from it.

Maybe but then some songs do hold a particular meaning for you even if it's not the word for word precise meaning intended by the writer and as this one is one of the more personal ones from Nicky maybe we're not meant to fully get every reference...maybe only Nicky does.... just the sense of not being able to get through to a person you care for in a relationship where there hasn't been a surface/barrier just feeling but then a surface can protect too can't it.....arguments/frustration. Guilt/anger...I like how it doesn't romanticise. I also find interesting how....unlike later songs...well, and some earlier songs too!...in this song there's uncertainty as to whether looking back to the past has any real point/means anything to the here and now

I found the recent interview I'd found before then lost

No Surface All Feeling (Everything Must Go, 1996)
A song for Richey.

SM: I wrote it on the bus while we were doing the Therapy? tour. Richey was always trying to get me to teach him Come As You Are. But in the meantime that song came about. At the time, we were listening to the Smashing Pumpkins, we were big Hüsker Dü fans too – Candy Apple Grey, all that stuff.

NW: Absolute beauty, I think. I wrote the lyrics before Richey disappeared. I think he thought it was a tad sentimental. I think we needed a bit of that at the time. It’s a pouring out of emotion, and that cascading drum roll and the great guitar outro.

JDB: They were the last two band demos Richey ever heard. He quite liked Surface because he loved Siamese Dream and it reminded him of that. I was quite hurt by that, as I felt that song was more of a human moment for us and that he would see the humanity in it, but it wasn’t his bag.

https://www.loudersound.com/features...heir-own-words