Carfest South: The Beginning of the End?

[darkanddivine]

Automatik, what a nice turn of phrase "the slow motion thrill" - love it!

Although I miss the physicality of music, I think we're defined by what we grow up surrounded by. Cassettes are objectively terrible with horrendous audio and yet people still love them. Obviously that’s because there's a bit more thought that goes into making a cassette vs a Spotify playlist.

That said, I have no issue with music streaming (aside from the royalties thing which properly needs sorting out.) Given that most of us have seen cassettes, CD's Vinyl & minidisc in our time - I can't say I'm wedded to any particular media type, since change has come along so quickly. Streaming might be the ideal for now - but might that change again? The thing about change is that although it may be fast, interesting or inevitable (depending on your view) - it’s a mistake to view that change as optimum and ideal at the same time. While eReaders have many plus points (the easy/optimum way to read,) the physical book remains the ideal way to read.

Anyway.. music! What I find really interesting during this time of change is the change in format towards digital music - the output musicians hasn’t changed as much. There’s no need to be constrained by an 80 minute CD and yet bands still make albums of between half an hour and 70 minutes. Which is proof that although the technology might change things beyond recognition, people don’t move anything like as fast.

[Dac X Lee]

I definitely prefer the digital formats because they allow an easier sharing and spreading of music. But the physical ones feel so good to have in your hands and they look pretty on the shelf, with the artwork and all.

[Frozendiva]

I liked collecting records and singles and CDs. Digital clears up a lot of storage space, but it is a pain to upload to various devices, and if the devices fail, you are stuck with limited 'sharing' across devices.

Physical CDs and such make it easy to obtain music - especially for bands like the Manics, who don't release a lot of physical stuff in Canada. Without ordering the physical CD from Amazon or wherever, and not having access to some stuff on iTunes, getting some material has been very very difficult with copyright and licensing agreements. Can't see why I can't order UK stuff from say, iTunes UK.

[Marat Sar]

The band is great, the first posts in this thread are stupid, who cares.

Thank you, this has been my contribution.

[UEF]

Originally Posted by Frozendiva

Can't see why I can't order UK stuff from say, iTunes UK.

Ask the EU

[raven]

Originally Posted by darkanddivine

Automatik, what a nice turn of phrase "the slow motion thrill" - love it!

Although I miss the physicality of music, I think we're defined by what we grow up surrounded by. Cassettes are objectively terrible with horrendous audio and yet people still love them. Obviously that’s because there's a bit more thought that goes into making a cassette vs a Spotify playlist.

That said, I have no issue with music streaming (aside from the royalties thing which properly needs sorting out.) Given that most of us have seen cassettes, CD's Vinyl & minidisc in our time - I can't say I'm wedded to any particular media type, since change has come along so quickly. Streaming might be the ideal for now - but might that change again? The thing about change is that although it may be fast, interesting or inevitable (depending on your view) - it’s a mistake to view that change as optimum and ideal at the same time. While eReaders have many plus points (the easy/optimum way to read,) the physical book remains the ideal way to read.

Anyway.. music! What I find really interesting during this time of change is the change in format towards digital music - the output musicians hasn’t changed as much. There’s no need to be constrained by an 80 minute CD and yet bands still make albums of between half an hour and 70 minutes. Which is proof that although the technology might change things beyond recognition, people don’t move anything like as fast.

They (always They. Someone wants to sort They out) always say change is inevitable but I agree it's not always better and it usually ends up reducing choice - thinking about it it's usually taking away choice that becomes inevitable and in time no one will remember what went before. I am glad e-books haven't lead to proper paper books going into oblivion though. I can, if pushed, see the attraction of e-readers if you go abroad on holiday and there are restrictions on space/weight with your luggage....but that's it. And I am tempted to say visit the coast and countryside round these Isles but I can concede It's also quite heartening to know the reason it hasn't happened is simply cos the paper format still outsells.
Though vinyl's making a comeback, whether that's a retro fad thing or another pushback at the industry to say sure digital music has lots in its favour but people do like physical hold it in your hand items too. Why not both...this is the thing, it's not just that the physical is being replaced but that you're told it's inevitable, it's what people want now....but what if we don't all want the same or we want it but we want choice too

I can see us all being replaced by robots aye. So much has gone to automaton/computerisation/digitalisation....course it has a done a lot of good but we've lost the balance in some ways, making ourselves redundant

Yes it has been a real arse of a day

Can you tell!?!?!?

[IntlDebris]

Originally Posted by raven

this is the thing, it's not just that the physical is being replaced but that you're told it's inevitable, it's what people want now

Completely. 2016 was the first year that digital download albums outsold CD albums in the UK, and yet we've been told repeatedly, for years, that CDs are 'dead'. CDs sold around 47m in the UK last year, vinyl sold around 3m, yet we're told that vinyl is the way people listen to physical music these days. Never, ever listen to what the media say about music consumption.

[darkanddivine]

Oh man, the "dead" argument is the only thing that's dead.

Some quick examples of actual empirical data: Waterstones went from making to taking losses to a profit after ditching eBooks (sales of which have plateaued.) Print books were up 4% in the UK last year with eBooks down the same amount. Private Eye and The Spectator are on all time high print sales. And in the UK, despite the rise of online shopping, fully 84% of UK retails sales are in a brick and mortar store.

It's a classic case of confirmation bias really. Because the people who write the stories are in a little bubble of Netflix, online shopping and Uber, they think that other people live exactly as they do. The amount of times I've heard "nobody watches telly any more, it's all about the cord cutters now" is unbelievable. Especially given that 75% of TV viewership is still live on a "traditional" TV set.

[Automatik]

Over the weekend I attempted an interminable reply to many of the excellent points raised since my last post. I had to give up. I decided it would make more sense to split my response into two posts.

Originally Posted by IntlDebris

I still use shops whenever possible... I really miss CD singles. I know we get deluxe edition albums now, which have the effective b-sides on them, but it was the spreading out of the tracks that I enjoyed. Every few weeks another band I'd like put out a new single and there'd be a handful of new songs to enjoy.

As a b-side obsessive I empathise with this. There's two ways of looking at it, though: I can either mourn nostalgically for a lost, comforting routine, or accept that we still have teaser tracks on YouTube and elsewhere and extra tracks and all sorts of remixes; 'singles' of sorts are still released for streaming and you can still listen to them on 'upload day' or whatever the industry term is, so there is still a reassuring sense of contemporaneity.

One very cold comfort of the streaming age is if you listen to a track on YouTube on the day of its release you can, if you time it right, be one of the first to view it. It's not the same, I know, but I'm trying to be optimistic...

One aspect of the streaming age that is preferable is its reliability, in the sense that you never knew if the record shop would actually stock the physical CD single in question (even if they had said beforehand that they would). Also, receiving CD singles in the post (as I did with the PFAYM and RTF singles) wasn't at all exciting. I don't know why. Now you just click and buy and the mp3 is on your laptop almost instantly.

Originally Posted by darkanddivine

Automatik, what a nice turn of phrase "the slow motion thrill" - love it!

Thank you!

Originally Posted by darkanddivine

Given that most of us have seen cassettes, CD's Vinyl & minidisc in our time - I can't say I'm wedded to any particular media type, since change has come along so quickly. Streaming might be the ideal for now - but might that change again?

Completely agree with this. I don't miss cassettes or CDs - I miss the experiences I nostalgically and simplistically associate with them. The routines and rituals of purchase and first listen I mentioned above.

I don't like vinyl because I consider the sound quality to be repulsive, and I really don't understand the format's resurrection.

Originally Posted by Dac X Lee

I definitely prefer the digital formats because they allow an easier sharing and spreading of music. But the physical ones feel so good to have in your hands and they look pretty on the shelf, with the artwork and all.

Originally Posted by Frozendiva

I liked collecting records and singles and CDs. Digital clears up a lot of storage space, but it is a pain to upload to various devices, and if the devices fail, you are stuck with limited 'sharing' across devices.

I love having my physical Manics collection, but I don't miss losing any of my other CDs to storage and friends down the years. In fact, I've never even thought about it, because I have all the songs digitally now (actual mp3s, not streaming access). As soon as I had access to digital formats, my music collection expanded exponentially.

If I care about a band I'll buy them on CD - otherwise the mp3 is fine for me.

There's a tendency to rose-tint our view of our music habits but I really don't miss the impracticality and crushing expense of trying to assemble a physical music collection. I'm more willing to take a chance now too. Since going digital I've sampled so much new music, and so many new bands - it's unthinkable compared to the situation circa 1995.

[Automatik]

Originally Posted by IntlDebris

Completely. 2016 was the first year that digital download albums outsold CD albums in the UK, and yet we've been told repeatedly, for years, that CDs are 'dead'. CDs sold around 47m in the UK last year, vinyl sold around 3m, yet we're told that vinyl is the way people listen to physical music these days. Never, ever listen to what the media say about music consumption.

This has been frustrating me for some years now - the narrative and the objective reality not matching. I've lost track of the number of articles I've read in the last decade about the rude health and resurrection of vinyl, about how CDs are dead and everyone's buying vinyl, and yet as you correctly point out, CDs still outsell vinyl by over eleven to one.

I suppose one aspect of this is true, though: CD singles as a format have virtually disappeared.

Originally Posted by darkanddivine

Oh man, the "dead" argument is the only thing that's dead.

Some quick examples of actual empirical data: Waterstones went from making to taking losses to a profit after ditching eBooks (sales of which have plateaued.) Print books were up 4% in the UK last year with eBooks down the same amount. Private Eye and The Spectator are on all time high print sales. And in the UK, despite the rise of online shopping, fully 84% of UK retails sales are in a brick and mortar store.

It's a classic case of confirmation bias really. Because the people who write the stories are in a little bubble of Netflix, online shopping and Uber, they think that other people live exactly as they do. The amount of times I've heard "nobody watches telly any more, it's all about the cord cutters now" is unbelievable. Especially given that 75% of TV viewership is still live on a "traditional" TV set.

Thank you so, so much for posting this excellent rejoinder.

There is one very well-known British centre-left daily newspaper (and website) that is the prime proponent of this sort of narrative, that has in the last 15 years (at least) become an utter parody of itself regarding it. It is extremely irritating but they don't let basic facts get in the way of a good Nathan Barleying.

[raven]

Originally Posted by Automatik

Completely agree with this. I don't miss cassettes or CDs - I miss the experiences I nostalgically and simplistically associate with them. The routines and rituals of purchase and first listen I mentioned above.

I don't like vinyl because I consider the sound quality to be repulsive, and I really don't understand the format's resurrection.

You've already said it though - Nostalgia. My first records were vinyl, mainly just singles though, mainly Madonna new from HMV or Smiths and back list off the market....y'could get old jukebox ones though they had the middle bits missing so had to get a bag of the middle bits....whatever they're called... and fit them in to play them. Albums I borrowed or had borrowed for me from the library, my pocket money didn't stretch, but tapes were dominating by then and soon they were pretty much it and I preferred them....you couldn't wear your record player like you could your walkman.....it's probably all down to what y'spent your teens buying I haven't bought any vinyl since but I liked the covers and sleeves they came in, the smell (yes) and the crackle of the needle.....not so much the jumping all over it though that they tended to do....that happened to Madonna's True Blue album....I was the first to borrow it but it still skipped and jumped all through, devastated. Listened to Wham on that player too....staring longingly at the cover pics of George.
The covers are collected too aren't they? Not necessarily for the large photos of George Michael smiling cheekily no, but for the artwork on some. Not really the same on something the size of a cassette
I spent a Sunday afternoon copying the cover of Appetite for Destruction for my art class...this was a few years after Wham. I did a good job yes
So, I haven't bought any vinyl during the latest revival but I can see the attraction. Though now vinyl brings to mind mainly men, probably a detective, with a lifelong fondness for whisky passing out in an ancient armchair as the needle traces the grooves of a jazz record and an open fire crackles.....too many movies

[Automatik]

Originally Posted by raven

You've already said it though - Nostalgia.

Sorry - yes, I do understand the nostalgia aspect, and it's good that you are able to experience that. I'm all for nostalgia, as my posts in this thread typify.

I suppose what I meant was I do not understand why vinyl has been resurrected so successfully whereas cassettes, which share a number of similar practical drawbacks, haven't.

Or, in terms of extinct media, why MiniDiscs haven't become trendy again or why we don't boast of the superiority of VHS or even Betamax (!) or LaserDiscs over DVDs or streaming.

Nostalgia is a funny old thing. We're running out of retro anyway.

[LA ex]

I still buy music on CD, just like I have for over twenty years. Why? Well apart from being set in my ways it feels to me that owning a physical object says far more about you than owning a collection of files on a computer. I'm pretty sure that a very high percentage of my CDs I can still remember where and when I got them - I'm pretty sure downloaders don't have the same associated memories.

On a similar note, the ease of access of music has destroyed the thrill of discovery. I started listening to music properly in 95 and got into the Manics in 96 when EMG came out. But discovering what came before EMG was a long, yet rewarding journey, inspired by the occasional play of Motorcycle Emptiness or La Tristesse on the radio. Even after I'd bought GT, GATS and THB there was the very rare thrill of hearing Suicide is Painless or Motown Junk on the radio, let alone finding b-sides. Then there was the excitement of finding (a re-issued) copy of the New Art Riot in a record shop in Glasgow when visiting unis in 98 (and the three hour train journey home full of anticipation to listen to it!) I doubt it would have been anywhere near as fun if I'd had easy access to everything they'd ever released via Youtube!

[Dac X Lee]

Originally Posted by LA ex

On a similar note, the ease of access of music has destroyed the thrill of discovery.

No, it hasn't.
I still remember the adrenaline of discovering something nice and rare by downloading it from p2p sources.
But growing older has, indeed, destroyed that.

Now, I'm not saying that the following applies to you, or anyone in particular, but I've definitely noticed that there is a tendency to blame modern times, trends and technologies for our lack of passion, while the truth is, people grow up and calm down.

[IntlDebris]

Originally Posted by Automatik

I suppose what I meant was I do not understand why vinyl has been resurrected so successfully whereas cassettes, which share a number of similar practical drawbacks, haven't.

Because a lot of people have argued for a long time that vinyl is superior to CD and cassette. Back in the '80s people like Steve Albini were arguing against CDs. A lot of people never took to them. And a hell of a lot of the classic rock 'canon' was originally released with vinyl as the 'main' format, so it has that stature.

Tapes were always a cheaper option, and although a high quality cassette on a good quality tape deck will sound brilliant (I've downloaded tape rips with no post-processing and there's next to no hiss), most people just played them on boomboxes which did nothing for them, so few people in the wider public think of them in the same way.

The fact that tapes are around at all as a nostalgia thing at the minute is because they survived their wilderness years as the main format of choice of underground music, particularly experimental stuff, noise, black metal and so on, which preferred them either for their regularly low fidelity which matched the musical textures, as a cheap alternative for vinyl (again, CD proving unpopular in very analogue-based music circles), or both. As a handful of acts like Oneohtrix Point Never and Emeralds, who came from underground tape scenes, became more widely known, there was more popularity with the format, which led to more of these labels, which eventually got more coverage on independent music sites like Tiny Mix Tapes and the like, and eventually caught the eyes of hipsters, which inevitably led to £15 Kanye West tapes being sold in Urban Outfitters.