Mao

[raven]

Originally Posted by cameron33

It seems like we’re arguing at cross purposes. I’ve never been a supporter of Communism, or claimed Mao did a good job during that period. I just feel that the notion that all famines are man-made and that any government that presides over a famine, or severe food shortage, is therefore guilty of genocide, is illogical - absurd even.

All famines are due to an interaction of natural factors, human factors and government policy. The underlying cause of famine in any country is poverty. Economic policy errors or indeed natural disasters do not create the threat of famine in advanced western countries.

And it is also true that by building the industrial base and improving the rural infrastructure, Mao's policies during and after the Great Leap Forward prevented incidents of famine recurring, which until that point had been a recurring tragedy in China over the last two centuries.

Mao’s mistakes during the period of famine/GLF are a huge black mark agains an otherwise impressive record, but that doesn’t make him comparable to Hitler. Mao was on the “wrong side of history” for the West, which means that his “wrongs” are amplified and exaggerated, often to absurdity, while his “rights” are downplayed. Btw, a bit of light research will suggest that the couple of infamous quotes which posit that Mao intentionally “sacrificed” half the population or whatever were taken completely out of context. Again, we get back to the complexity of the issue and need for thorough background research. I’m no authority, but at least have read a few different sources from different perspectives on the issue, ie fairly rudimentary stuff.

For me, the balance of research I have read (on both sides) points to political cockups on a local and national level, in the context of a very poor nation in a period of great historical upheaval, but not purpose mass murder. It will never belong in the category of wrong as, say, Japan’s Unit 731 whereby “doctors” performed vivisection and other gruesome experiments on live prisoners, including children, at the behest of the emperor. Something well known in China, but less known about in the West, or indeed Japan. Indeed, the US was so eager for the findings of this “research” that they granted immunity to dozens of high level Japanese torturers in exchange for it. Imagine how people would spin *that* about Mao had it been him buying such information.... I include this merely as an example of different perspectives on how a narrative can be downplayed or amplified. And how the notion of mass murderer or evil are incredibly subjective and rooted in personal/national experience, level of intent (IMO) and who gets to write the history.

No one has claimed Mao was guilty of genocide nor claimed that famines are entirely man-made
I feel we need to agree to disagree even though it bothers me when someone albeit someone I don't know expresses sympathy (at least) with a mass murderer. His policies left millions dead it's ridiculous to claim it all came down to bad weather and misfortune
Of course history is written by the winner etc we all know that ... and we are aware of Japan's barbarism during the war as we are aware of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and whilst not ignored they are downplayed as it doesn't suit the victor's narrative .....in fact for all your bemoaning poor Mao he's not actually that prevalent in the West when we come to roll out the Hitler's and Stalin's Mao's name is not usually on the roll call...I suspect it's partly because there's an element of the left that turns a blind eye to the evil perpetrated under a twisted interpretation of communism but also suspect that we tend to want our victims to look like us...we relate to the victims of the Holocaust more than we do the Chinese peasants under Mao for example.....and partly of course because China is still under Communist rule...and they too run arguments weirdly similar to yours re Mao being a little misguided but not really a bad bloke.....

It sounds like you have a lot of personal feelings tied up in this ... the only sort of equivalent but not really I can throw in is feeling at a certain time really tired of hearing all the problems in the North of Ireland placed at the door of the IRA, people can be crude and ignorant in their judgements...but does realising that absolve the IRA? Of course not...that was a conflict far from black and white but it still doesn't mean they were freedom fighters....nothing is black and white...people and conflicts rise out of circumstances.... and people can throw crude assumptions around but that doesn't mean the IRA were justified and it doesn't mean Mao wasn't responsible for mass murder...I'm not equating the two just the way of thinking when things can also feel like they hit a nerve....but it's dismissing the torture and murder of millions to claim Mao was just a bit misguided