Biggest Manic Folly?

[framedadolescence]

Originally Posted by Takk

It is, none of those were designed to put people off.

Know Your Enemy wasn't designed to put people off. They did what they felt was right artistically for them at the time.

I don't get people saying "what if they'd realised Lifeblood after TIMT?" They would have been critically slated and LB would have been nestled between Travis & Katie Melua in middle aged peoples record collections. Not to mention lose more of their hardcore fanbase already disillusioned by TRUTH. The fact is they didn't. Each album always seem to be a reaction against the previous one with this band.

Also, the quote you put of mine was a response to someone saying they thought the Manics were of the belief they could release anything and still be the biggest band in the UK. Not about putting people off them. The exact opposite.

[counterlanguage]

Originally Posted by proevpete

The biggest Manics folly for me is not dealing strategically with huge commercial success circa 1998-2001. With TIMT they were the biggest band in the UK at the time: a platinum selling album, hit singles, critical acclaim. The peak of which was the Millennium gig - 60,000 people paying to go and see a Manics concert.

The band's reaction to critical backlash against TIMT is a major factor in this and to me that's their greatest folly. When they say that they didn't feel comfortable with commercial success, I think what they actually meant was that they didn't know how to deal with the backlash. They'd been used to being slagged off for things they were proud of - i.e. their deliberately contrary attitude, but when they were slagged off for TIMT being too middle of the road, they reacted really badly - instead of shrugging it off, they started thinking too much about what the Manics are, ended up committing commercial suicide with KYE. Which they needn't have done. After all, Masses shows that they can do 'back-to-basic' Manics and get a number one.

The end result of the band's reaction to the backlash was their tendency to overthink things - KYE fails because they spent most of 2000/01 overthinking things. Ultimately it led to them losing confidence and focus. It wasn't until SATT that they just got back to doing what they're good at, regained their confidence and did what felt right, instead of trying to reinvent what the Manics are.

Wire's quote from around the time of SATT - "The Manic Street Preachers have been through a process of destroying what we are" - says it all. They started that in 1999 and never should have done. It's only when they realised what they were best at again that they started to fix the folly - i.e. that Wire got a massive hump about the NME slagging the band off.

[The Gutless Wonder]

The Manics have always been far too analytical.

[nocultureicons]

I'd say the whole 'last shot at mass communication' thing. Sounded too desperate and it was even more embarrassing when it didn't work.

Originally Posted by The Gutless Wonder

The Manics have always been far too analytical.

CRITICISM! CRITICISM! CRI-TI-CISM! Oh yes.

[Mr.Selfdestruct]

Originally Posted by The Gutless Wonder

The Manics have always been far too analytical.

Jesus Gutless! Go and wash your typing fingers!

[Takk]

Originally Posted by framedadolescence

Know Your Enemy wasn't designed to put people off. They did what they felt was right artistically for them at the time.

They weren't comfortable with the commercial success of truth and basically wanted to put people off...I think that's a fair comment.

Also, the quote you put of mine was a response to someone saying they thought the Manics were of the belief they could release anything and still be the biggest band in the UK. Not about putting people off them. The exact opposite.

How is it the exact opposite? I said that they weren't trying to put people off.

[nocultureicons]

I don't think they were trying to 'put people off', I'd say they were just trying to shake off the MOR image the adoration from Q had given them.

[sculptureofabloke]

Originally Posted by Takk

They weren't comfortable with the commercial success of truth and basically wanted to put people off...I think that's a fair comment.

They've always had this thing about "returning to their roots", "being true to themselves" or whatever. I've always thought This Is My Truth is a strange hit of an album really, yeah it's got a couple of radio hits on but overall I think it's a bit too spacious and experimental to have been as successful as it was. I suppose there's always their idea of there being two Manics and two sets of fans or whatever, I think they've got that wrong. I don't think they were really trying to put people off so much as influence people.

I love that the way they've carried on though, I can't imagine maby bands of a similar stature in the late 90s (Blur, Oasis, The Verve, Radiohead) being so willing to make the step down from arenas to academies but Manics seem to have loved it. Weird to think that I've seen them in stadiums and cafes!

[meganslastwords]

Originally Posted by proevpete

Great thread.

The biggest Manics folly for me is not dealing strategically with huge commercial success circa 1998-2001. With TIMT they were the biggest band in the UK at the time: a platinum selling album, hit singles, critical acclaim. The peak of which was the Millennium gig - 60,000 people paying to go and see a Manics concert.

The key moment for me is getting No.1 with Masses Against the Classes. Again it was a sign of their popularity at the time but I think it gave them (them as in the band, management, label etc) a false sense of superiority. Bands need to remember (especially when their egos are at their biggest) that they are successful because they are producing music that appeals to the masses - not that the masses have suddenly realised the appeal of your band and its manifesto.

They've spoken about how commercial success didn't sit well with them. I think this is mainly due to the guilt of their acquired wealth after Richey's disappearance rather than any artistic issues. Wire has been trying for the last 10 years for the band to return to those levels of commercial popularity ffs. We all know he'll whore himself out for any commercial cause.

Put simply, the 'concept' of Know Your Enemy was a complete failure. They talk about Lifeblood as their most vacuous moment but truly it was KYE. Now I say 'conceptually' and I mean that in terms of its strategic implications in the overall trajectory of the Manics career and legacy. I like the album a lot. There are some great tunes on there. But believing that success came from some sort of artistic power that allowed them to turn their backs on the business and still maintain their level of appeal was their greatest folly. It was their biggest mistake and took them 6 years to recover from. If they had of released another MOR chart rock album (like SATT) they would have released probably 2 more albums with solid critical and commercial success in 2003 and 2005 - rather than choosing (and choosing is the word) to fall back on an awful Greatest Hits and a (quite frankly) 'who gives a fuck' B-sides collection in 2003.

I'm going to have another think about this and get back to you all....

this

[Heart2Heart]

Being too glum about no hits from PFAYM. The Noughties and beyond just isn't that kind to any rock bands imo.

Probably belongs to the 'Controversial Opinions' thread:

I'm one of those people who don't hate PFAYM, and that's probably because I'm a pretty late Manics fan. I went online, looked at the Wikipedia page for the Manics because I had been looping Tolerate, then went and bought the album that the article said was most accessible. I think with the passing of time people will see that PFAYM is a really good introduction to the Manics; it has a lot of their worldview in it and the sound is very accessible. My first Manics album was actually Know Your Enemy and that put me off the band for a while.

[meganslastwords]

Originally Posted by Heart2Heart

I think with the passing of time people will see that PFAYM is a really good introduction to the Manics; it has a lot of their worldview in it and the sound is very accessible.

definitely agree with this, PFAYM and EMG are very new fan friendly

[hummingbird]

nah play new fans the holy bible on a loop and if they don't learn to love it in 24 hrs then they're not allowed to join the family

[starstruck]

Welcome Heart2Heart

Originally Posted by Heart2Heart

I'm one of those people who don't hate PFAYM, and that's probably because I'm a pretty late Manics fan. I went online, looked at the Wikipedia page for the Manics because I had been looping Tolerate, then went and bought the album that the article said was most accessible. I think with the passing of time people will see that PFAYM is a really good introduction to the Manics; it has a lot of their worldview in it and the sound is very accessible. My first Manics album was actually Know Your Enemy and that put me off the band for a while.

a great many people here do not hate PFAYM either, so you are not alone. there are some amazing songs on it. glad that KYE did not scare you off forever!

[Heart2Heart]

Originally Posted by hummingbird

nah play new fans the holy bible on a loop and if they don't learn to love it in 24 hrs then they're not allowed to join the family

I don't know how to respond to this without sounding silly or a poser, but I liked it the moment I heard stuff from it -- on Youtube (I don't have the album; I'll just collect all the other Manics stuff that's currently in my neighbourhood record shop and when I'm done with that I'll place an order for it).

[hummingbird]

Originally Posted by Heart2Heart

I don't know how to respond to this without sounding silly or a poser, but I liked it the moment I heard stuff from it -- on Youtube (I don't have the album; I'll just collect all the other Manics stuff that's currently in my neighbourhood record shop and when I'm done with that I'll place an order for it).

for a long time the only tracks i liked were faster and this is yesterday. Now it's my favourite manics album