Archives Of Pain

[oxygen]

Originally Posted by Richian

I don't advocate it, but I'm not sure why listening to it should make me feel 'uncomfortable'.

I share Noisy Cat's feeling on it, or at least I used to. I always liked AoP, but in the beginnig it made me uncomfortable too. I didn't understand if it was ironic or not. I would have a hard time accepting such a pro-death penalty stance considering their (left-wing) political views, especially because the lyrics are so bleak and down-right cruel.
In the end I simply decided it has to beat least partly ironic, or I wouldn't be able to listen to it anymore, it's just too dark and against my beliefs.

I'm sure all of you already read this, but I'll post it what Nicky and Richey said about the song for completeness' sake:

"Bentham's 'Panopticon' - visibility is a trap.
Foucault - Savagery is necessary.
Is revenge justified? Nothing in common with Manson or Dahmer cult and its current fashionability. There is no glory in innocent death. Death/Murder/Redemption part of the human condition."
(Richey James; THB Tourbook)

"That was the song that me and Richey worried about the most, and did the most work on. It was written as a reaction to the glorification of serial killers. In 'Silence of the Lambs', Hannibal Lecter is made in to a hero in the last scene of the film - people feel sorry for them. It's like that line from Therapy? 'Now I Know How Jeffrey Dahmer Feels' ('Trigger Inside' - Troublegum). I don't fucking want to know how Jeffrey Dahmer feels, and I think it's quite appalling to put yourself in that position. Everyone gets a self-destructive urge the urge to kill, but I don't particularly like the glorification of it. There's a book by Marcel Foucault with a chapter called 'Archives Of Pain'. Richey and I did that book at university, and it had quite an influence on us. It talks about the punishment matching the crime. But the song isn't a right-wing statement, it's just against this fascination with people who kill. A lot of people don't like to see rapists getting off with a £25 fine.
That line: 'Kill Yeltsin, who's saying?' - well, Yeltsin is a figure of hate to us. A person who's basically an alcoholic... that's a personal, petty manics thing."
(Nicky Wire; Melody Maker 27.8.94)

from http://home.arcor.de/starluver/manic...es_of_pain.htm

[Littlesue]

Originally Posted by TheGreatPretender

I don't think Edwards was being ironic at all. I think he genuinely believed every word he wrote.
Whether you choose to agree with the lyrical content of the song is your choice, but that shouldn't deter anyone from agreeing how utterly brilliant this tune actually is not to mention applauding RJE for at least having the courage to express his opinions no matter how controversial they may have been/are.
Anyway, I think some of you see Richey as being far more liberal minded then he actually was. Certainly some of the opinions/views he shared with the media suggests he had liberal/left-wing views on some issues and ultra-conservative views on other matters.
I should imagine his political and social beliefs were kind of split down the middle really.

I'd agree with this, typical Working Class opionions usually swing from extreme left to extreme right.

[tzb]

Originally Posted by Nicky Wire

the song isn't a right-wing statement, it's just against this fascination with people who kill.

Which implies some irony in the tone of the lyrics, no? :/ genuine question, perhaps I'm misinterpreting something

[oxygen]

Originally Posted by tzb

Which implies some irony in the tone of the lyrics, no? :/ genuine question, perhaps I'm misinterpreting something

Yep, that's how I interpret it too.

[Noisy Cat]

Originally Posted by Mark

As if the song wasn't awesome enough, I love the fact that the band can make the crowd chant back at them the line 'Give them the respect they deserve'. That's some pretty powerful stuff right there.

Personally, I hate that. It's like when Morrissey crowds yell "England for the English!" during National Front Disco (even though that song definitely contains irony). Just a pack, almost yobbish, unthinking mentality. Not bothering to even question what their heroes are singing.

[tzb]

"We only wanna get drunk" chanted unthinkingly by bucket-hat wearing festival-goers springs to mind. The implicit sadness is lost on people there as well.

[Bryter Layter]

Originally Posted by Littlesue

I'd agree with this, typical Working Class opionions usually swing from extreme left to extreme right.

Yes Sue! Thank you for making that connection. I was afraid too out of fear the PC police would label me anti-working class simply for stating a well known fact.

Originally Posted by tzb

Which implies some irony in the tone of the lyrics, no? :/ genuine question, perhaps I'm misinterpreting something

No, I don't think you're misinterpreting anything. If that's how you choose to hear the lyrics, who can say you're wrong especially when the author never really went into any kind of detail about the songs meaning. I think it's a fair assumption, but I personally don't see it that way especially considering Edwards around this time was talking to the media about how he saw certain benefits within Shariya Law.

Personally, I don't buy most of what Nicky says about Richey as a lyricist. He has a tendency to lionize RJE something fierce and he seems to have had great personal difficulty with the content of that song so his memory may be a little skewed in favour of believing what works for him. Of course he did know Richey the best so maybe he speaks the truth about the real meaning behind that song, I don't know.

[MrsCarbohydrate]

MICHEL FOUCAULT, Nicky.

It always seems to me that Richey/ Nicky believed the song at the time they wrote it. I doubt it is really a part of their philoshopical outlook on life (and doesn't Wire say as much). But I think most people would experience that visceral first thought of "just hang the bastard" when they read about some particularly awful crime. I know I do, and I'm (intellectually?) against the death penalty. I always thought the song was exploring that dichotomy- the pull between your first, violent instinct and the more rational response. And the whole of THB is so infused with rage and violence that it seems to me to fit perfectly with the rest of the album.

[Mary Chain]

Originally Posted by Clarence Pistoldinner

Like much of Manics stuff, it's not so much offering an answer as posing a question.

Excellently put, though I also wouldn't find it hard to believe that Nicky and Richey believed in the opions they expressed in the lyrics at the time. The anger in the album sounds very reactionary, so a lot of the songs on it aren't two-sided arguments so much as an outpouring of vitriol. I think in this song's case the sentiment is very appropriate considering the rest of the content.

Originally Posted by TheGreatPretender

Anyway, I think some of you see Richey as being far more liberal minded then he actually was. Certainly some of the opinions/views he shared with the media suggests he had liberal/left-wing views on some issues and ultra-conservative views on other matters.
I should imagine his political and social beliefs were kind of split down the middle really.

"I would prefer no choice. One bread one milk one food that's all" would say a lot to back that theory up. Richey seems to constantly alternate between left and right-wing views. I took All Is Vanity as someone almost wishing for the security and structure of totalitarianism.

I must say, as an afterthought, that "Sterilise rapists!" is perhaps my favourite lyric of all time.

[Bryter Layter]

Mrs C, of all the posts in this thread, I think I personally agree with yours the most. That's pretty much how I see it as well.
However, just so you know, Archives is a Richey lyric only. Nicky had no input in the song other than to perhaps give it a bit of an edit. The content is all Edwards.

[tzb]

How'd you know that, TGP?

[Bryter Layter]

How'd I know what, hun?

[tzb]

Sorry, that it's a Richey-only one? I didn't know that (or if I did I'd forgotten).

[Bryter Layter]

Oh! Nicky has said he had no involvement in the writing of that song...purely a Richey original.
Then again, he's also taken credit for writing She is Suffering which is apparently incorrect so who knows. Either way, it does scream Richey though, don't you think? It doesn't have a Nicky vibe to it at all, IMO.

[sculptureofabloke]

I don't think it's fair to consider it pro-death penalty. And as far as lines like "All I preach is extinction", it wouldn't be the first time Richey wrote something in the third person.