Will it ever happen?

[sculptureofabloke]

Originally Posted by raven

It no doubt is in part to how downloads have made it easier to market disposable/here today gone tomorrow type stuff(??) The Annie Lennox thing maybe sums it up, probably a young newbie set to hunt round the net(!), heard her voice, thought wow go get her go get before listening properly, doing a little research, thinking 'what is this nagging feeling about her name, hell her voice sounding familiar!'

They must've felt quite silly after realising that.. If they even remember they've done it, probably sending the same email out to loads of people eh. I still don't understand how it happened, surely if you've never heard of her and you think ooh this is good, you'll look for more...

Originally Posted by raven

But it's probably in part down to the reasons around why its getting harder for working class actors to come through....over the past 15/20 years the student grants have all gone and debt is the norm....most bands probably form in and around college/university; benefits and help with housing have been cut with sanctions and 'work' placements increasing, add to that smaller venues and studio spaces all being shut down; music and drama rarely featuring in schools in poorer neighbourhoods (if they ever did feature? I would have loved to have done drama. We got one lesson. One. Thanks to a supply teacher. Yeah I still remember that one lesson. And as for music we got about a term's worth and they involved 2 to a keyboard for half hour a week and it was mainly about how many Mickey Mouse weird noises you could get it to make. Or the other girl I got stuck with could make cos she never let me have a go. I know. Best days of your life. They're lying to you children)
Where's the space now for a working class band to form, rehearse, record.....if they can't quickly get the support of a major recording company backing them they're not going to last.....and it's such an uphill struggle to even get to the position of bringing yourself to their attention so.
It's never been easy but it does seem like it must feel near impossible now

Can't remember who it was but I've definitely read about bands starting out in the 80s basically thanks to New Deal, or whatever it was called then. Aye, agree with this lot really. At my school Music was an option for GCSE but I think only four or five people actually took it past year 9. Seems to be a lot of political contempt for the arts. Well, funding of them at least. Couple of years old and soz for the Torygraph, but this seems toe the line A critic's plea: stop all arts funding now. Tories are as oblivious of the fact that all the talent in the world doesn't matter if the opportunity to use it is closed off, as they are that all the incompetence in the world is no barrier to success when you're of the kind of privelege of Jeremy Hunt...

Do feel sorry for anyone struggling to keep a small independent venue affloat. Just had a quick look at live music licensing and looks quite complex... Course I understand the need for curfews and monitoring sound levels, but I don't really understand why it's something that needs to be paid for. According to the gov site, "You may be infringing copyright and could be sued for damages if you stage live music events in public without obtaining a licence". So if Manics turned up at my local pub and they didn't have a license, Sony could sue em. What an unscrupulous set up... Still, the more small venues that struggle the better, we need more luxury apartments eh?

Originally Posted by raven

There's always been talent shows like Pop Idol, X Factor....I know they're criticised for being overly commercial but they're nothing new....they just borrowed an old format and brought it back. And pop's always had its commercial side, I remember when (these were all fields) it was all the Stock, Aitken & Waterman factory....Kylie, Bananarama, Rick Astley, Sonja(!).....(Sorry about that, should've given you a warning, erase it from your brain, put on a Manics vinyl...better now??) Maybe the X Factor could be said to give working class kids a chance but it's not the same as providing space and time to form a band and play gigs, record, get a contract, build up a career is it. The biggest pop band ever ever were The Beatles, working class, could they happen today??......not that there's anything wrong with being posh and holding a guitar (could mention Joe Strummer!) but as with all across the arts you need that mix of voices, you need that variety and you need it open to and for everyone cos it's not just about playing it's about finding the bands that speak to you ain't it and seeing working class characters in settings that ring true - y'don't have to be a working class actor to do that....tis called acting aye... but if their are no working class voices anywhere how the feck will they know if they're getting it right....and where will be the role models for other working class kids?

Yeah, doubt The Beatles would've made it today somehow. Fair point about X Factor providing a space for working class kids, but even that is far too safe and sanitised for a young Manics. Do sometimes wonder how far established singers would've got on X Factor. Some of my favourite singers, you probably couldn't say are good singers in the classical sense but they're distinctive. Someone like Roger Waters, he just sounds like a maniac half the time but I love his voice and I think it suits his music very well. He'd probably get nowhere on X Factor anyway, they're not interested in distinctiveness beyond humiliation really.

I admit I am a bit of an inverted snob but I'm not so much that I think it's impossible for posh kids to make art that connects with working class kids. I hate the thing we've got going on so much today when people get so vitriolic about "champagne socialists" and "virtue signallers", as if giving a shit about anyone in different circumstances to you is such an alien concept. You can't truly give a shit about refugees unless you take a family into your own home, you're a hypocrite if you don't. So much bollocks logic out there, but personally I'm more interested in what people think and what makes them tick than how big their house is or what school they went to. Each to their own mind. But then again, when I get on this line of thought I always remember how pissed off I was at university having middle class people telling me what it's like to be working class. It was a bit Common People, ooh I've never met one of these before, I wonder what they're like. I've lost where I was now, soz, doing a bit of pottering around while I'm typing this bollocks.

Think the broad point I'm trying to make is I think it is possible for the arts to transcend social class. Going back to The Beatles and adding a Rolling Stones - you've got one band of northern working class lads who were clean cut and wholesome when they started out, majority of their songs being about love which just about anyone can relate to, rather than being a Working Class Hero or owt like that. Then you've got the southern posh boys, The Rolling Stones with their more rebellious image. Suppose going back to the manufacturing stuff, you can present any image you like. However authentic it is, is a different thing and I wonder how important that is to people.

[raven]

Originally Posted by sculptureofabloke

Can't remember who it was but I've definitely read about bands starting out in the 80s basically thanks to New Deal, or whatever it was called then.

Had to go to the God of Google about this as the only New Deal I remember is the one New Labour brought in with them in the late 90s and all that started me on was the road of depression....but no I see the New Deal for Musicians....lates 90s too another New Labour thing presumably riding high on Britpop and thanking Noel for popping round for tea. Yeah, scrapped 10 years after. By older New Labour

Originally Posted by sculptureofabloke

Do feel sorry for anyone struggling to keep a small independent venue affloat. Just had a quick look at live music licensing and looks quite complex... Course I understand the need for curfews and monitoring sound levels, but I don't really understand why it's something that needs to be paid for. According to the gov site, "You may be infringing copyright and could be sued for damages if you stage live music events in public without obtaining a licence". So if Manics turned up at my local pub and they didn't have a license, Sony could sue em. What an unscrupulous set up... Still, the more small venues that struggle the better, we need more luxury apartments eh?

They'd be fine if they wanted to drop into your local pub. As long as the pub sells alcohol(?) they be covered. That and no more than 500 people turn up. So don't advertise it.
Do you still have a local pub then?

Originally Posted by sculptureofabloke

Yeah, doubt The Beatles would've made it today somehow. Fair point about X Factor providing a space for working class kids, but even that is far too safe and sanitised for a young Manics. Do sometimes wonder how far established singers would've got on X Factor. Some of my favourite singers, you probably couldn't say are good singers in the classical sense but they're distinctive. Someone like Roger Waters, he just sounds like a maniac half the time but I love his voice and I think it suits his music very well. He'd probably get nowhere on X Factor anyway, they're not interested in distinctiveness beyond humiliation really.

I admit I am a bit of an inverted snob but I'm not so much that I think it's impossible for posh kids to make art that connects with working class kids. I hate the thing we've got going on so much today when people get so vitriolic about "champagne socialists" and "virtue signallers", as if giving a shit about anyone in different circumstances to you is such an alien concept. You can't truly give a shit about refugees unless you take a family into your own home, you're a hypocrite if you don't. So much bollocks logic out there, but personally I'm more interested in what people think and what makes them tick than how big their house is or what school they went to. Each to their own mind. But then again, when I get on this line of thought I always remember how pissed off I was at university having middle class people telling me what it's like to be working class. It was a bit Common People, ooh I've never met one of these before, I wonder what they're like. I've lost where I was now, soz, doing a bit of pottering around while I'm typing this bollocks.

Think the broad point I'm trying to make is I think it is possible for the arts to transcend social class. Going back to The Beatles and adding a Rolling Stones - you've got one band of northern working class lads who were clean cut and wholesome when they started out, majority of their songs being about love which just about anyone can relate to, rather than being a Working Class Hero or owt like that. Then you've got the southern posh boys, The Rolling Stones with their more rebellious image. Suppose going back to the manufacturing stuff, you can present any image you like. However authentic it is, is a different thing and I wonder how important that is to people.

I think authenticity is important. The Rolling Stones may be a higher class, ha.....surely not Keith Richards??, but for all the rebellion they've never really pretended to be anything they're not....not that I know much about them....about them I can still say 'before my time' though they're still going I know so...anyway their rebellion seems to have been all around sex and drugs....kinda conforming to the rock n roll lifestyle when y'think on but they never wanted to smash the oppressive system. Or suchlike. I don't think anyway.

[Son of Stopped]

The media is fucked too. Compared to writing to individual journalists, now what have you got?
Too undiscovered for the heavier Q, Mojo, EMAP publishing (wait do EMAP still do that?) and I bet if you wrote of your exciting guitar based band, you'd be another clogging up the email addresses of what remains of the NME never to be published.
Just a regular schnook.
(Shot of Richey during a gun at the camera as Shit Vicious's "My Way" plays)

[sculptureofabloke]

Originally Posted by raven

Had to go to the God of Google about this as the only New Deal I remember is the one New Labour brought in with them in the late 90s and all that started me on was the road of depression....but no I see the New Deal for Musicians....lates 90s too another New Labour thing presumably riding high on Britpop and thanking Noel for popping round for tea. Yeah, scrapped 10 years after. By older New Labour

Oh, was that what it was called, New Deal for Musicians? Couldn't be arsed to check meself, "New Deal" is a bit of a vague thing to be googling, sorry. Summat at the back of my mind about some band starting out in the 80s talking about using some benefits or other to get the band started... Can't remember who for the life of me but it's niggling back there.

Originally Posted by raven

They'd be fine if they wanted to drop into your local pub. As long as the pub sells alcohol(?) they be covered. That and no more than 500 people turn up. So don't advertise it.
Do you still have a local pub then?

Eh? Thought alcohol and music licenses were completely separate, being the reason why Wetherspoons don't play any music live or otherwise. Ah either way, there's too much against the little guy, which is a nice way to get off tangents but...

Originally Posted by raven

I think authenticity is important. The Rolling Stones may be a higher class, ha.....surely not Keith Richards??, but for all the rebellion they've never really pretended to be anything they're not....not that I know much about them....about them I can still say 'before my time' though they're still going I know so...anyway their rebellion seems to have been all around sex and drugs....kinda conforming to the rock n roll lifestyle when y'think on but they never wanted to smash the oppressive system. Or suchlike. I don't think anyway.

Aye, while I was doing a bit of wiki-ing for that last post I read that Mick Jagger's mother was an active member of the Tories so he's hardly gonna be Billy Bragg. I'm no fan or expert by a long stretch, but I don't ever remember hearing any of the Stones come out with political statements or public support for any party or referendum or owt?

Course like you say there are different types of rebellion, and sex and drugs and rock n' roll is as much a stereotype as Rik from the Young Ones. And you know rebellion always sells at a profit and capitalism is quite good at taking advantage of anti-capitalism, eh? Get the feeling that the Stones' brand of rebellion is more of a style, an option than to do with any circumstance, whereas Manics were born underdogs.

Originally Posted by Son of Stopped

The media is fucked too. Compared to writing to individual journalists, now what have you got?
Too undiscovered for the heavier Q, Mojo, EMAP publishing (wait do EMAP still do that?) and I bet if you wrote of your exciting guitar based band, you'd be another clogging up the email addresses of what remains of the NME never to be published.
Just a regular schnook.
(Shot of Richey during a gun at the camera as Shit Vicious's "My Way" plays)

NME have been more interested in fashion and gadgets than music for years. TV too, but saying that I don't watch a great deal of TV... Jools Holland has survived, but Top Of The Pops, The Word, TFI Friday, even stuff like CD:UK and Popworld... have they been replaced? The show I've been seeing new music on most has been Twin Peaks oddly enough.

[raven]

Originally Posted by sculptureofabloke

Eh? Thought alcohol and music licenses were completely separate, being the reason why Wetherspoons don't play any music live or otherwise. Ah either way, there's too much against the little guy, which is a nice way to get off tangents but...

Wetherspoons don't play music by choice apparently, in an attempt to keep the old tavern feel....inspired by George Orwell....I kid you not. So you can sit in there all day now and feel Manic-esque

I prefer the old traditional pubs....but smaller ones that ideally don't do food apart from crisps. Maybe nuts. Definitely no TV screens nor music. Pub pubs with a proper garden not a bus shelter stuck up for the smokers overlooking a busy road.

Anyways....I digress

Originally Posted by sculptureofabloke

Aye, while I was doing a bit of wiki-ing for that last post I read that Mick Jagger's mother was an active member of the Tories so he's hardly gonna be Billy Bragg. I'm no fan or expert by a long stretch, but I don't ever remember hearing any of the Stones come out with political statements or public support for any party or referendum or owt?

Course like you say there are different types of rebellion, and sex and drugs and rock n' roll is as much a stereotype as Rik from the Young Ones. And you know rebellion always sells at a profit and capitalism is quite good at taking advantage of anti-capitalism, eh? Get the feeling that the Stones' brand of rebellion is more of a style, an option than to do with any circumstance, whereas Manics were born underdogs.

Yeah I read that Mick Jagger had somewhat exaggerated his common as muck background. But, weirdly, maybe there's a certain pressure to....sure if you take opinion polls as a starter pretty much the whole country is working class. And yet the argument really isn't that there are too many posh boys in the music and arts world generally but that there aren't enough opportunities and chances for actual working class people to get a foot in and it matters well because it's only fair, simply put, and because we should have a range of voices and experiences drawn upon to reflect and to reach everyone....not that you have to bang on about politics as it's more than that, it effects how you view life in so many ways, how you see and empathise, are able to empathise with others...

Don't want more Billy Braggs though thanks

Originally Posted by sculptureofabloke

NME have been more interested in fashion and gadgets than music for years. TV too, but saying that I don't watch a great deal of TV... Jools Holland has survived, but Top Of The Pops, The Word, TFI Friday, even stuff like CD:UK and Popworld... have they been replaced? The show I've been seeing new music on most has been Twin Peaks oddly enough.

Did I hear TOTP was coming back?

[Hans]

Originally Posted by cs

When will we get another Manic Street Preachers? Will it ever happen? Manics is getting old. Will the music scene ever see the day of another Manic Street Preachers? Or even a big guitar, bass and drums band for that matter...

Well, let's make that band, then.

Do you play? Sing?

My ego is smaller than Nicky's, my lyrics are on par, but my bass skills are greater.

Let's go!

[raven]

Originally Posted by Hans

My ego is smaller than Nicky's, my lyrics are on par, but my bass skills are greater.

In light of your latter 2 comments.....I'd question your first comment re the size of your ego

[sculptureofabloke]

Originally Posted by raven

Wetherspoons don't play music by choice apparently, in an attempt to keep the old tavern feel....inspired by George Orwell....I kid you not. So you can sit in there all day now and feel Manic-esque

I prefer the old traditional pubs....but smaller ones that ideally don't do food apart from crisps. Maybe nuts. Definitely no TV screens nor music. Pub pubs with a proper garden not a bus shelter stuck up for the smokers overlooking a busy road.

Anyways....I digress

I thought it was more to do with not paying for the licenses, lowering their overheads and selling cheap booze. Not as cheap as they used to be, mind. I can see that though, especially given the type of historic buildings they tend to take on, one nearest me used to be a tram station. That said, one nearest Hull station, I don't remember being anything except a wallpaper shop.

I love a traditional pub too, not many around here though. I like background music enough, like a quiz machine too... Do like football but haven't had much pleasure watching Hull City for a while, don't mind watching a neutral game here but avoid watching City or United, or worse still City and United here. We do digress, don't we?

Originally Posted by raven

Yeah I read that Mick Jagger had somewhat exaggerated his common as muck background. But, weirdly, maybe there's a certain pressure to....sure if you take opinion polls as a starter pretty much the whole country is working class. And yet the argument really isn't that there are too many posh boys in the music and arts world generally but that there aren't enough opportunities and chances for actual working class people to get a foot in and it matters well because it's only fair, simply put, and because we should have a range of voices and experiences drawn upon to reflect and to reach everyone....not that you have to bang on about politics as it's more than that, it effects how you view life in so many ways, how you see and empathise, are able to empathise with others...

Don't want more Billy Braggs though thanks

Suppose that's summat that works in different ways too, exaggerating this or playing down that. End up thinking about Thatcher, unfortunately, and the elocution lessons she was supposed to have had to appear more "parliamentary". Then I think of the other side of the coin, about politicians with regional accents, like John Prescott and Andy Burnham and wonder if they're exaggerated too, cos they're just like you and me you know. Sometimes feels like a gimmick either way. Course it's more extreme with politicians, they'll show off all sorts of awkward publicity moments, eating pleb food, doing pleb things, trying their best to look human, meticulously hoping to show us how normal and relateable they want us to think they are.

Suppose the principle doesn't really change though, whatever career you're in, if you're relying on the public voting for you or buying your product, presenting yourself as relateable is a massive part of the process. Ah you know what, forget everything... if a new Manics turned up now, from a similar background and situation, angry and energetic, preaching and trying to make shockwaves in the press like they were, they'd just get a load of shit on Twitter about em being virtue signaling do gooders, hypocrites or whatever else.

Originally Posted by raven

Did I hear TOTP was coming back?

Oh, if you did I missed it. Somehow think it'd be a bit safer now than it was then, doubt you'd get a lad in a balaclava screaming between a couple of fire lit podiums...

[darkanddivine]

In short: no.

Slightly longer version: Naturally, any band is the product of a time, a place and a mood.
In terms of the Manics themselves, there are plenty of bands with similar emotions, similar feelings of repression or despair. For the Manics back in the 90's they found their escape with guitars and punk rock. It's arguable whether a band today would do that. The Manics of today won't sound like they Manics. They're probably making dark electronic music, or hip hop.

That's one change. But there is one other change that has perhaps had an impact over and above any other on the music industry. Sure the rise of streaming has changed how music is consumed a bit. But to be honest, people give this more credit than its worth. Some people have music as background noise - and they would never pay for music anyway, choosing to play stuff from the radio. And then there are hardcore music fans who still ultimately fund the smaller bands out of their own pocket. The risks that otherwise could have been taken by a label are shouldered by the band themselves.

The bigger change that I've seen is the reduction in risk taking in the industry at large. The music industry (which wasn't exactly prone to taking risks in the first place) now plays it safer than ever. For example, festivals are now broadly mediocre, middle class and full of bands knocking out re-hashes of entire albums or "the classics." They just aren't a place for taking risks or showcasing rising stars anymore. Not when you're charging big bucks. And that's what this all comes down to. And live music is the cash cow of the music industry by a long way.

While you do get the odd gem sneaking through, this particular change has (in my view) created a 2 tier touring circuit. Once you're in the elite club of selling out massive tours, you can basically charge punters whatever you want, and that sows the seeds for future re-issues and big gigs. Whereas you'd get lots of bands backed by labels rising up to say Academy/theatre style venues in the mid-90's, those same bands today would struggle to get higher up than a 400 capacity small venue. So they stay there unless they hit a windfall at a festival, score an accidental hit or just give up. I can give loads of rock bands busting a gut for just a handful of people every night who would have had some notoriety in the 90's and 2000's.

[raven]

Originally Posted by sculptureofabloke

Suppose that's summat that works in different ways too, exaggerating this or playing down that. End up thinking about Thatcher, unfortunately, and the elocution lessons she was supposed to have had to appear more "parliamentary". Then I think of the other side of the coin, about politicians with regional accents, like John Prescott and Andy Burnham and wonder if they're exaggerated too, cos they're just like you and me you know. Sometimes feels like a gimmick either way. Course it's more extreme with politicians, they'll show off all sorts of awkward publicity moments, eating pleb food, doing pleb things, trying their best to look human, meticulously hoping to show us how normal and relateable they want us to think they are.

Suppose the principle doesn't really change though, whatever career you're in, if you're relying on the public voting for you or buying your product, presenting yourself as relateable is a massive part of the process. Ah you know what, forget everything... if a new Manics turned up now, from a similar background and situation, angry and energetic, preaching and trying to make shockwaves in the press like they were, they'd just get a load of shit on Twitter about em being virtue signaling do gooders, hypocrites or whatever else.

Maybe Grime is where to look for a new Manics.....without guitars. I know nothing about Grime though cept it seems mainly working class, quite a bit political......
I love The King Blues....they've been around over 10 years now maybe their time to be the new Manics has gone, ha.....they've split and reformed once or twice I think too. They're not Grime no. What are they? Punk/ska/folk/hip hop.....definitely political/working class.....
It's hard to do I guess, mix politics in with music without you becoming a protest band/limited shelf life, sounding ridiculous, offensive, accused of not being 4 real!!?), being more about that than the music, being turned into a spokesman aka Billy Bragg (go away)

Wondering about Prescott and Burnham....maybe the problem behind wondering whether even they are exaggerating their class is the problem of the extent to which the media and politicians have become obsessed with image. Image matters more than substance
Most people react well when they feel someone is being genuine/authentic/themselves.....sure they may not then want to vote for you ha but at least they know where you stand and what you're offering and what you believe in, what matters to you

Originally Posted by sculptureofabloke

Oh, if you did I missed it. Somehow think it'd be a bit safer now than it was then, doubt you'd get a lad in a balaclava screaming between a couple of fire lit podiums...

It'll definitely be safer sculpture. All those DJs now locked up.

[darkanddivine]

Originally Posted by raven

Maybe Grime is where to look for a new Manics.....without guitars. I know nothing about Grime though cept it seems mainly working class, quite a bit political.....

It depends what you're looking for. If it's the Manics mkII, then that might be tricky to find. But in terms of the substance and the topics of discussion, it is out there - but it does sound different, and it's probably not on mainstream radio.

[Son of Stopped]

They got the look massively, guitar band. Just wait for the songs to declare. But visually it's Richey without a cock as a frontwoman!

http://www.nme.com/news/music/pale-w...e-tour-2132766

Unless already posted.

[Glass Angel]

Originally Posted by Son of Stopped

They got the look massively, guitar band. Just wait for the songs to declare. But visually it's Richey without a cock as a frontwoman!

http://www.nme.com/news/music/pale-w...e-tour-2132766

Unless already posted.

I'll check them out, but my first thought was that the photo at the top could be Brian Molko.

[Suicide Aldi]

Have a listen to Trampolene.

[slop101]

At the very end of this interview, James says that they're starting work on the new album in late August, which means they should be a week or two into it by now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbLCn32L-b8

So excited!