New article about Richey, William Burroughs, John Gray by...well...me

[Phil C]

Hi all.

I hope you'll forgive some shameless self-promotion but an article of mine that talks a lot about Richey and his lyrics has just been published here;

http://www.theweeklings.com/philip-m...of-the-writer/

The article also mentions Manics favourites William Burroughs and John Gray (as well as one of my personal favourite writers, Italo Calvino) so should be on-topic enough for this forum, I think.

I hope you enjoy it, and let me know what you think.

[SHR]

Interesting. Were you asked to write about this subject matter or did you propose it to the website?

[raven]

Originally Posted by Phil C

Hi all.

I hope you'll forgive some shameless self-promotion but an article of mine that talks a lot about Richey and his lyrics has just been published here;

http://www.theweeklings.com/philip-m...of-the-writer/

The article also mentions Manics favourites William Burroughs and John Gray (as well as one of my personal favourite writers, Italo Calvino) so should be on-topic enough for this forum, I think.

I hope you enjoy it, and let me know what you think.

Ah shameless self promoting of a piece about the joys of anonymity

You may find this interesting following on from your piece http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...s-9700345.html

I've never read any Calvino. I've never wanted to know too much about the lives of authors - well, there are exceptions - Plath, the Brontes whose lives interest me and in the Brontes case their times and the place they grew up - although despite her fame Emily Bronte remains a shadow. And that's a good thing - who wants the author peering over their shoulder as they read or narrating it in your head....I don't want to think do I like/dislike this person and have those feelings risk colouring their work. Writing fiction at least is about imagination, the inner world.....how can you write if you're concerned with fame....it's unlikely to come through writing for one....

Regards Richey, sure there's the personal there - self disgust is self obsession, he wasn't above acknowledging it but you can read too much into things and limit your reading/hearing by constantly looking for revelations on the writer's mind. What's remarkable about The Holy Bible is how political and analytical the lyrics are and even when they become personal - 4st7lbs - he views it objectively through another's eyes and he could still do that at a point where he himself was ill - it's when you lose that objectivity, that ability to see things through the eyes of others, imagine yourself in another's shoes that you lose perspective and creativity

In a culture obsessed with self we need books to explore the worlds of others and of the imagination, to escape just the self, even more

[Phil C]

Originally Posted by SHR

Interesting. Were you asked to write about this subject matter or did you propose it to the website?

I proposed it. I'd written a couple of articles for them about the election and they asked me what I wanted to do next. I'd already written the first draft for myself. The irony is that it's a US-aimed web site and my editor is American, and I don't think she knew much about the band at all at the time she commissioned it - she probably knows more than she ever wanted to now!

[Phil C]

Originally Posted by raven

Ah shameless self promoting of a piece about the joys of anonymity

I am in no way unaware of the irony of that In fact an earlier draft dealt more with the idea of how much the writer has to promote and brand themselves but it wasn't really relevant to the main thrust of the article so it was cut.

Originally Posted by raven

You may find this interesting following on from your piece http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...s-9700345.html

Thanks for that. Interesting article, but I'm glad I hadn't seen it when still writing mine!

Originally Posted by raven

Writing fiction at least is about imagination, the inner world.....how can you write if you're concerned with fame....it's unlikely to come through writing for one....

I'm not entirely sure I agree with you here. There have been lots of writers very interested in their own fame who have still produced good work - Norman Mailer, for example, or the New Journalism that put the writer at the heart of the story. And fiction is not just about the inner world, but is often a writer's reaction to the *outer* world. Calvino's 'Baron In The Trees' may remove himself from the ground but he still observes and interacts with it on occasion, and Hemmingway was famous for putting himself into the world so that he could write about it - and made himself a star doing so.

Originally Posted by raven

Regards Richey, sure there's the personal there - self disgust is self obsession, he wasn't above acknowledging it but you can read too much into things and limit your reading/hearing by constantly looking for revelations on the writer's mind. What's remarkable about The Holy Bible is how political and analytical the lyrics are and even when they become personal - 4st7lbs - he views it objectively through another's eyes and he could still do that at a point where he himself was ill - it's when you lose that objectivity, that ability to see things through the eyes of others, imagine yourself in another's shoes that you lose perspective and creativity

The theme of the article to a degree selects the material that can be included in it. I agree that 'The Holy Bible' is in no way just a personal album - it's savagely political, and I tried to reflect when writing (in particular) about 'Of Walking Abortion' and by structuring the analysis like a prosecution against humanity as a whole. If I were to write a piece purely about 'THB' I would definitely want to put more emphasis on its political content, but that would have been a different essay. I also tried to be careful not to psycho-analyse a man I've never met too much, although it's up to you to decide how well I walked that line.

Thanks so much for engaging with the article and taking the time to write such a considered response!

[raven]

Originally Posted by Phil C

I'm not entirely sure I agree with you here. There have been lots of writers very interested in their own fame who have still produced good work - Norman Mailer, for example, or the New Journalism that put the writer at the heart of the story. And fiction is not just about the inner world, but is often a writer's reaction to the *outer* world. Calvino's 'Baron In The Trees' may remove himself from the ground but he still observes and interacts with it on occasion, and Hemmingway was famous for putting himself into the world so that he could write about it - and made himself a star doing so.

Sure, no I agree it isn't entirely about the inner world. Often novels can 'explain' events like say WWII in a way that non-fiction often fails to do in terms of the psychology and in getting across how it must have felt like to live through certain episodes/periods of history.

Mailer and Hemingway - I've never read so stand to be corrected - but they're off-putting to me because they feel like very 'male' writers/egotistical writers (am I equating the two? ha)....I don't generally hold with the writers for men/women thing but they seem very masculine in their outlooks and attitudes.
New Journalism, again I know little about but wasn't Capote's In Cold Blood held as an example of that writing? Which would fall into journalism/non-fiction rather than fiction. I'm probably alone in the world in disliking In Cold Blood for several reasons but I do agree it was a turning point although maybe a turning point in non-fiction or narrative non-fiction maybe rather than fiction. And of course one of the problems, for me, with In Cold Blood is that Capote over shadows it in a way...he let his personal feelings overtake the book, he was arguably manipulated by the murderers .... it makes an interesting study, that in itself, but it also shows the pitfalls of a writer becoming a 'character' so to speak, their fame overshadows their work. Other writers have explored similar themes and become entangled themselves.....Joe McGinness' Fatal Vision is an excellent example and also an example of a journalist who realised it. And a very good read

[Phil C]

Originally Posted by raven

Sure, no I agree it isn't entirely about the inner world. Often novels can 'explain' events like say WWII in a way that non-fiction often fails to do in terms of the psychology and in getting across how it must have felt like to live through certain episodes/periods of history.

'Art is the lie that helps us understand the truth.' Never was a truer word spoken.

Originally Posted by raven

Mailer and Hemingway - I've never read so stand to be corrected - but they're off-putting to me because they feel like very 'male' writers/egotistical writers (am I equating the two? ha)....I don't generally hold with the writers for men/women thing but they seem very masculine in their outlooks and attitudes.

Oh absolutely. I've only read one Hemmingway novella, but I've read a bit of Mailer. Funnily enough I've just started reading Millett's 'Sexual Politics' and she uses one of Mailer's books as an example of how sexual violence is normalised in books of the time. Certainly, he has his moments where I disapprove of what he writes, and he's written some poor books, but at his best he's a real writer - 'The Naked and the Dead' is a very powerful war novel, for example, and 'The Armies Of The Night' a great piece of socio-political reporting. He's a writer of ideas - it's just that sometimes those ideas aren't as interesting as at others...

Originally Posted by raven

New Journalism, again I know little about but wasn't Capote's In Cold Blood held as an example of that writing? Which would fall into journalism/non-fiction rather than fiction. I'm probably alone in the world in disliking In Cold Blood for several reasons but I do agree it was a turning point although maybe a turning point in non-fiction or narrative non-fiction maybe rather than fiction. And of course one of the problems, for me, with In Cold Blood is that Capote over shadows it in a way...he let his personal feelings overtake the book, he was arguably manipulated by the murderers .... it makes an interesting study, that in itself, but it also shows the pitfalls of a writer becoming a 'character' so to speak, their fame overshadows their work. Other writers have explored similar themes and become entangled themselves.....Joe McGinness' Fatal Vision is an excellent example and also an example of a journalist who realised it. And a very good read

You're not alone in your thoughts about 'In Cold Blood' - William Burroughs was disgusted by it and wrote Capote a vitriolic letter about it, which you can enjoy in full here; http://www.openculture.com/2014/08/w...an-capote.html

[raven]

Originally Posted by Phil C

You're not alone in your thoughts about 'In Cold Blood' - William Burroughs was disgusted by it and wrote Capote a vitriolic letter about it, which you can enjoy in full here; http://www.openculture.com/2014/08/w...an-capote.html

I'm not much of a fan of Burroughs neither. I know to be a true Manic fan that reading the Beats is one of the qualifications but no. I do share Capote's view on Kerouac - "That's not writing, that's typing"
I do like Alan Ginsberg's poems though so all is not lost. Sunflower Sutra is a favourite

[Phil C]

Originally Posted by raven

I'm not much of a fan of Burroughs neither. I know to be a true Manic fan that reading the Beats is one of the qualifications but no. I do share Capote's view on Kerouac - "That's not writing, that's typing"
I do like Alan Ginsberg's poems though so all is not lost. Sunflower Sutra is a favourite

Well...I'd argue Kerouac changed American writing in particular massively - not bad for a typist! I enjoy 'On The Road', but 'Desolation Angels' is his masterpiece for me.