Rewind The Film and Futurology - ideal track listings

[Phil C]

It's always fun (well...I think so) to look at a particular Manics era (i.e. album plus b-sides/extra tracks/demos) and come up with your own personal track listing for that album (would anyone *not* include 'Welcome To The Dead Zone' on SATT for example?).

With 'Rewind The Film' and 'Futurology' things become a little more fluid because we know that the two albums were largely recorded together and some of the tracks have sounds that cross over between the two. So I've been trying to come up with my ideal track listings of both.

'Rewind The Film' is reasonably easy;

This Sullen Welsh Heart
Show Me The Wonder
Rewind The Film
Builder Of Routines
It Will Take More Than A Grave To Bury You
(I Miss The) Tokyo Skyline
Anthem For A Lost Cause
As Holy As The Soil (That Buries Your Skin)
3 Ways To See Despair
Running Out Of Fantasy
The View From Stow Hill
30-Year War

Adding 'It Will Take More Than Grave...' should make sense to anyone who heard it - it's not only a beautiful song, but the brass instrumentation fits nicely with the rest of the album and lyrically it ties into the local nature of the album's themes. It's this lyrical element which means 'Stow Hill' fits more snugly on 'Rewind The Film' than 'Futurology' and makes a perfect lead-in to '30 Year War' (which is not transferred to 'Futurology' for the same reason). The only thing I'm not sure about is whether it should be 'Running Out Of Fantasy' or 'Manorbier' that misses out for its inclusion. I'm leaning towards 'Running' making the cut but that could change.

'Futurology' on the other hand is a harder beast to define. That 'Empty Motorcade' should have made the cut is a no-brainer for me. I'm drawn to the two instrumental b-sides over the two they actually included, but I wonder if that blunts the rockier element of side 2. I think 'Divine Youth' is a bit too cheesy (those horrible keyboard stabs) but I'm not sure that 'The Last Time I Saw Paris' is good enough to replace it (in terms of keeping a female vocal on it). So, here's an attempt at a track-listing;

Futurology
Walk Me To The Bridge
Let's Go To War
The Last Jet To Leave Moscow
Europa Geht Durch Mich
Empty Motorcade
Sex, Power, Love and Money
See It Like Sutherland
Black Square
Between The Clock And The Bed
Futurology (R. Seiliog remix)
Misguided Missile
Kodawari

Adding the remix of 'Futurology' might seem an odd choice but I think it adds to the electro feel. I'm also tempted to find room for the demo of 'Divine Youth with Nick's vocal which is much superior to the album version IMO, but having 'Empty Motorcade' in its slot makes side 1 pretty flawless.

Over to you.

[Automatik]

A man after my own heart - fascinating post and great idea for a thread. It will take me some time to compose a detailed track listing (as I have to listen to both albums and sets of b-sides through again), but here's some immediate thoughts:

I especially like your proposal of moving See It Like Sutherland to Futurology, and the inclusion of the R. Seiliog Remix of Futurology (although the inclusion of a remix on an album proper - whilst I would go for it personally - hasn't been done since GT).

Personally I wouldn't include Between The Clock And The Bed (which is in my view one of the weakest tracks on Futurology) or Kodawari. Empty Motorcade, of course, should have been included. The Sound Of Detachment (one of my favourites) would also gain a place in my interpretation.

The Last Time I Saw Paris could reasonably have been included on RTF (possibly as the sweeping, dramatic final track?), as could Divine Youth (which I seem to be alone in liking). I also think T. E. Lawrence On A Bike - of RTF b-sides - would have suited RTF, if a version that didn't sound like a demo had been done, perhaps seguing into The Last Time I Saw Paris as final track.

I'll have a listen and supply my amended track listings later today.

EDIT:

Okay, here we go. I've taken my starting point as RTF and Futurology both continuing to have the same number of tracks as they do at present (i.e. 12 and 13, respectively). Upon reflection The Last Time I Saw Paris doesn't fit sonically or emotionally into RTF after all, thus:

This Sullen Welsh Heart
Rewind The Film
Divine Youth
Running Out Of Fantasy
Builder Of Routines
4 Lonely Roads
Show Me The Wonder
T. E. Lawrence On A Bike
Three Ways To See Despair
(I Miss The) Tokyo Skyline - the last sixteen seconds of Three Ways To See Despair segue perfectly into the start of Tokyo Skyline, oddly enough.
The View From Stow Hill
30 Year War

Singles: This Sullen Welsh Heart; (I Miss The) Tokyo Skyline

30 Year War is very much the epilogue to RTF. I do agree that The View From Stow Hill fits RTF more than Futurology. In my listing above there's a thematic break between the first four tracks (which are sad, slow and nostalgic) and the following three (which are a tiny bit more upbeat both musically and thematically). The final five songs are very much their own beasts, but communicate themes and emotions in-keeping with the album as a whole.

I agree that It Will Take More Than A Grave To Bury You very much fits the sound of RTF but I did not feel that it was strong enough to be included.

And so to Futurology:

Walk Me To The Bridge
Empty Motorcade
Sound Of Detachment - another track that I seem to be the only fan of.
Let's Go To War
Europa Geht Durch Mich
Futurology (R.Seiliog Remix)
Hughesovka
Mayakovsky - like Three Ways To See Despair/Tokyo Skyline above, the end of Hughesovka is almost the same sound as the start of Mayakovsky.
Sex, Power, Love And Money
The Next Jet To Leave Moscow
See It Like Sutherland
Misguided Missile
The Last Time I Saw Paris

Singles: Europa Geht Durch Mich; The Last Time I Saw Paris (possibly R. Seiliog Remix of Futurology instead, not sure)

That is, an album that starts subdued and surrendered and frustrated (cf: RTF), gets its passion back in the course of the first eight tracks, turns on Next Jet To Leave Moscow, calming down again to finish with Last Time I Saw Paris as a wondrous, mysterious flourish of an epilogue and promise of great things to come.

[Phil C]

Originally Posted by Automatik

I agree that It Will Take More Than A Grave To Bury You very much fits the sound of RTF but I did not feel that it was strong enough to be included.

I'll comment more fully later but I have to say that 'It Will Take More Than A Grave To Bury You' is, in my opinion, one of the most beautiful tracks to feature JDB's voice. But then I love brass so having a track where all the backing is brass is always likely to appeal to me.

[Automatik]

Originally Posted by Phil C

But then I love brass so having a track where all the backing is brass is always likely to appeal to me.

That's probably the difference here - I am not a fan of brass at all. Looking forward to your comments!

[Phil C]

Originally Posted by Automatik

I especially like your proposal of moving See It Like Sutherland to Futurology, and the inclusion of the R. Seiliog Remix of Futurology (although the inclusion of a remix on an album proper - whilst I would go for it personally - hasn't been done since GT).

Not by the Manics, but I was more thinking about Primal Scream's 'Xtrmntr' album, which includes the band's version of 'Swastika Eyes' and the Chemical Brothers' remix.

Originally Posted by Automatik

Personally I wouldn't include Between The Clock And The Bed (which is in my view one of the weakest tracks on Futurology) or Kodawari. Empty Motorcade, of course, should have been included. The Sound Of Detachment (one of my favourites) would also gain a place in my interpretation.

'BTCATB' had to grow on me I admit, and I felt having it next to 'Black Square' made the second half of the album a little too mid-paced. But I really like it now. I like James' backing vocals a lot and the way the song builds to the 'Hatred and failure' bit at the end. My main concern about 'Kodawari' was that musically it's a little similar to 'Walk Me To The Bridge' in the chorus, and the riffing in 'Mayakovsky' makes me wish they'd played it in 2014 instead of 'Dreaming A City' so I could have danced to it. I do like it a lot though. 'The Sound of Detachment' I like musically, and in terms of making 'Futurology' have more of a 'sound' (i.e. synth and electro) it would have been a good song to include. Unfortunately it's utterly let down by the lyric which contains horribly OTT imagery for a song which is basically Wire just having a bit of a moan. It's almost embarrassing in places.

Originally Posted by Automatik

I also think T. E. Lawrence On A Bike - of RTF b-sides - would have suited RTF, if a version that didn't sound like a demo had been done

I rather like the 'Roses In The Hospital'-esque funk guitar, but it really needed a bit more work on it to make it challenge for a place on the album.

Originally Posted by Automatik

In my listing above there's a thematic break between the first four tracks (which are sad, slow and nostalgic) and the following three (which are a tiny bit more upbeat both musically and thematically). The final five songs are very much their own beasts, but communicate themes and emotions in-keeping with the album as a whole.

I don't really see 'Divine Youth' fitting on 'RTF' - it's very much a synth-heavy track. Other than that, interesting choices.

I didn't select singles but to be honest I'm not sure I'd change the ones they actually chose. 'Show Me The Wonder' is hardly their greatest moment but it's the most obvious single on it. If they were feeling confrontational they could have given 'Europa' a proper video release but it was still used in the promotion of the album with the lyric video. Maybe 'Misguided Missile' could have been a single.

[Automatik]

Originally Posted by Phil C

I was more thinking about Primal Scream's 'Xtrmntr' album, which includes the band's version of 'Swastika Eyes' and the Chemical Brothers' remix.

Well, that suits me - Xtrmntr and Vanishing Point are two of my all-time favourite albums.

I've said a number of times before that the Manics are an impressive remixes band - a part of their catalogue seldom fully acknowledged and appreciated.

The Erol Alkan remixes of Europa Geht Durch Mich were outstanding, too.

Originally Posted by Phil C

'BTCATB' had to grow on me I admit, and I felt having it next to 'Black Square' made the second half of the album a little too mid-paced. But I really like it now.

Between The Clock And The Bed is far from a bad track. And you're entirely right about James' delicious backing vocals (an addition so subtle in many songs that he rarely gets credit for it). But as you also rightly highlight, it makes the second half of the record perhaps a little too subdued. (Personally I adore the piano solo on it from 2.31.) But something has to make space for the other tracks, and a slow number like Between is the logical choice.

Black Square is a difficult one, too. I really, really like everything about it - its eerie, floating, decontextualised reprise of Europa Geht Durch Mich at the start (which reminds me of the start of Elvis Impersonator), its insistent rhythm, its well thought-out lyrics - but like Between The Clock And The Bed it has a washed out, exhausted feel that, reluctantly, doesn't suit my Futurology. It's a far better track than Between The Clock And The Bed in my opinion, and I did actually include it on my provisional track listing for Futurology but edited it out to make space for See It Like Sutherland (which, ironically, is also a down-tempo track, but which for me fits better than the former two).

Including See It Like Sutherland, Mayakovsky and Hughesovka raises another problem: three instrumentals on one album? Too many? My (muddled) thinking is Mayakovsky and Hughesovka are one extended track, so it isn't really three instrumentals.

Originally Posted by Phil C

My main concern about 'Kodawari' was that musically it's a little similar to 'Walk Me To The Bridge' in the chorus...

I do feel genuinely spoilt leaving triumphs like Black Square, Kodawari and Blistered Mirrors off my Futurology, because the b-sides and album tracks linked to it really were just so, so good - beyond my wildest hopes, actually. But there's only space for 13 tracks, so...

Originally Posted by Phil C

'The Sound of Detachment' I like musically, and in terms of making 'Futurology' have more of a 'sound' (i.e. synth and electro) it would have been a good song to include. Unfortunately it's utterly let down by the lyric which contains horribly OTT imagery for a song which is basically Wire just having a bit of a moan. It's almost embarrassing in places.

That's understandable, but in its defence there's a long, long tradition of what could be euphemistically described as variously successful forms of 'introspective' (read: self-indulgent) lyrics from Nicky, typically taking up 35-45 per cent of every album era since EMG (and a great deal before). A non-exhaustive list: Ballad Of The Bangkok Novotel, Born A Girl, Close My Eyes, Caldey, Evidence Against Myself, Litany, Morning Comrades, Mr Carbohydrate, No One Knows What It's Like To Be Me (classic!), Prologue To History, Socialist Serenade, Valley Boy... etc. Plus Bad Boys And Painkillers from TGW and almost all of IKTZ. Embarrassing or endearing is a matter of perspective really and, as you say, the glorious score of Sound Of Detachment (for me) more than makes up for Nicky's automatic writing on it lyrics-wise.

Originally Posted by Phil C

I rather like the 'Roses In The Hospital'-esque funk guitar, but it really needed a bit more work on it to make it challenge for a place on the album.

I was surprised that they put T E Lawrence On A Bike out in what is essentially a demo format but it's not the first time they've treated potentially classic b-sides as unfinished afterthoughts (cf: Engage With Your Shadow as the epitome of this approach). But I think it has the makings of a truly great album track - it has the same weary feel as Between The Clock And The Bed and Black Square, actually, but with a snarl that recalls Prologue To History or, perhaps, Next Jet To Leave Moscow.

Originally Posted by Phil C

I don't really see 'Divine Youth' fitting on 'RTF' - it's very much a synth-heavy track.

After multiple listens today I really can't agree. Divine Youth for me is almost quintessentially an RTF track. I must find out whether that's a harp on it...

So, yeah: I'll concede that my listing gives Black Square unforgivably short shrift but otherwise I am satisfied with my proposals.

[Son of Stopped]

I was happy enough with what we got for RTF, but I did play around with the tracklistings for Futurology.
It started with Dreaming A City. Maybe the band worried that would be too much of a muso start to an album. But I thought it was like the opening titles to an ITC 60's title sequence the Manics had.
Then I went to Walk me To The Bridge and then Between The Clock And The Bed. Might be too soon for some, but I was making the album around the pulse and tried to keep it going as much as I could. So stuff like the title track and Sex,Power,Love and Money were quite early, with some of the slower tracks bunched at the end. Obviously ending with (and if this Tablet spells it right on first go...) Mayakovsky (Yes and no, it's spelling had an I on the end).

Doing it that way might make it sound samey, but the beat goes on!

[someone, somewhere, soon]

i did try shuffling the tracks around into a proper "flow", but at the minute I'm quite happy with iTunes' chronological sorting of my RTF/Futurology/Together Stronger era playlist:

Show Me The Wonder
Builder of Routines
Anthem for a Lost Cause
30 Year War
Melancholyme
This Sullen Welsh Heart (demo)
Walk Me To The Bridge
Europa
Divine Youth
Black Square
Between The Clock
Misguided Missile
View from Stow Hill
Blistered Mirrors
Empty Motorcade
Let's Go To War (demo)
Let's Stay Together (BBC session)
Before I Leave
(Feels Like) Heaven

19 tracks, which feels awkward for me - I need to relisten to some of those bsides, maybe boost it up to 20, 21 tracks.

thoughts from looking at that list;

i obviously don't rate RTF much in hindsight - maybe it just falls into the shadow of its successor for me

the demo version of Sullen Welsh Heart trumps the studio version, and sounds good positioned a few songs in - I do miss Lucy Rose's vocal though, I wish there was a way of combining the two tracks

Melancholyme is my "lost classic bside" of the era

Walk Me To The Bridge and Europa are a fantastic double whammy of tracks - my original attempt at a shuffled playlist started with those two (followed by the Sullen demo, if i recall - although having those two tracks follow that demo also works really well on this list)

if i were to drop a track to take the list down to 18, it'd be the Let's Go To War demo

(Feels Like) Heaven is a great closing track for this era

[Phil C]

Originally Posted by Automatik

Well, that suits me - Xtrmntr and Vanishing Point are two of my all-time favourite albums.

I've never understood the love for 'Vanishing Point'. 'Kowalski' and 'Star' are decent, but aside from that I don't think there's a particularly good song on it (although b-side 'How Does It Feel To Belong' is very pretty). I prefer 'Evil Heat' myself.

Originally Posted by Automatik

I've said a number of times before that the Manics are an impressive remixes band - a part of their catalogue seldom fully acknowledged and appreciated.

The Erol Alkan remixes of Europa Geht Durch Mich were outstanding, too.

Agree with the general point, disagree with the example! I don't dislike the Erol Alkan mixes but they over-stay their welcome and despite having listened to them back-to-back on numerous occasions I still can't hear the difference between the two.

Originally Posted by Automatik

That's understandable, but in its defence there's a long, long tradition of what could be euphemistically described as variously successful forms of 'introspective' (read: self-indulgent) lyrics from Nicky,

But of your list, only 'No-one Knows...' descends to the same level as 'Detachment'. 'I'm holding a pistol against my head / I've gouged my eyeballs out again' - no you haven't Nick, now stop sounding like a 15 year old emo, it's embarrassing. 'Ballad of the Bangkok Novotel' for example has a definite sense of humour about it, with Wire sending himself up something rotten, as does 'Mr Carbohydrate'. They're really not the same kind of thing at all.

Originally Posted by Automatik

After multiple listens today I really can't agree. Divine Youth for me is almost quintessentially an RTF track.

It has an extremely heavy 80s synth sound (especially on the chorus) which would for me disqualify it from 'RTF' instantly.

[Automatik]

Originally Posted by Phil C

I've never understood the love for 'Vanishing Point'. 'Kowalski' and 'Star' are decent, but aside from that I don't think there's a particularly good song on it (although b-side 'How Does It Feel To Belong' is very pretty). I prefer 'Evil Heat' myself.

Different people, different lives, different tastes, really. It depends what you're after: Vanishing Point is a good album to have on in the background (ditto Echo Dek), whereas Xtrmntr is far too intense to relax to. Of the two, Xtrmntr is undoubtedly the more accomplished, but my fondness for Vanishing Point in part derives from the memories it evokes.

And Trainspotting is a particularly good song.

Originally Posted by Phil C

Agree with the general point, disagree with the example! I don't dislike the Erol Alkan mixes but they over-stay their welcome and despite having listened to them back-to-back on numerous occasions I still can't hear the difference between the two.

You're absolutely right about the nigh-on impossibility of hearing the difference between the two remixes - but that doesn't really bother me and nor is it important to me, as I have them one after the other on my playlists. Great background music whilst you're pottering around or going for a walk.

Originally Posted by Phil C

But of your list, only 'No-one Knows...' descends to the same level as 'Detachment'. 'I'm holding a pistol against my head / I've gouged my eyeballs out again' - no you haven't Nick, now stop sounding like a 15 year old emo, it's embarrassing. 'Ballad of the Bangkok Novotel' for example has a definite sense of humour about it, with Wire sending himself up something rotten, as does 'Mr Carbohydrate'. They're really not the same kind of thing at all.

True, true. Still, I like Sound Of Detachment and would have it on the album.

Originally Posted by Phil C

It has an extremely heavy 80s synth sound (especially on the chorus) which would for me disqualify it from 'RTF' instantly.

'Extremely heavy 80s synth sound' is an odd description to me - you could equally say its 'insistent, soft, soothing, melancholic harp' qualifies it perfectly for RTF and concomitantly disqualifies it from Futurology. Interesting that we can interpret a song's sound so differently.

[Dancing Kirby]

I did my own Futurology tracklist on day one and it hasn't changed.

01. Europa Geht Durch Mich
02. Walk Me to the Bridge
03. Let's Go to War
04. The Next Jet to Leave Moscow
05. Dreaming a City
06. Black Square
07. Misguided Missile
08. Divine Youth
09. Between the Clock and the Bed
10. Mayakovsky
11. The View from Stow Hill
12. Futurology
13. The Last Time I Saw Paris

I never bothered making one for the Rewind the Film but if I did it would be...

01. 4 Lonely Roads
02. Running out of Fantasy

...and retitled Fast Forward the Film.

[Phil C]

Originally Posted by Dancing Kirby

I never bothered making one for the Rewind the Film but if I did it would be...

01. 4 Lonely Roads
02. Running out of Fantasy

...and retitled Fast Forward the Film.

Wow. Those are two of the tracks I'm most likely to skip when listening to the proper version to be honest. 'Running...' is ok, but '4 Lonely Roads' is the weakest song on the album for me. 'Rewind The Film' and 'As Holy As The Soil' are (probably - not actually written one for a while) in my top 20 Manics songs.