Archives Of Pain

[vtn]

My impression was that this song wasn't exactly a hard and fast statement of belief, but instead an exploration of an idea that Richey was considering. I do think the way the song is presented both musically and lyrically is intended to make it sound very aggressive and probably to make listeners uncomfortable. It makes me a little uncomfortable - just the level of rage in it, and I'm not even completely against the death penalty - but I think James saved it by adding 'Manic Street Preachers' to the second chorus. It says they're not above judging themselves.

[lopaz]

Originally Posted by Noisy Cat

Personally, I hate that. It's like when Morrissey crowds yell "England for the English!" during National Front Disco (even though that song definitely contains irony). Just a pack, almost yobbish, unthinking mentality. Not bothering to even question what their heroes are singing.

But the whole point of the song's to explore and immerse yourself in that emotion of rage, singing along to it's just the natural thing. I'm sure when they wrote the song they didn't want people to passively examine it, they wanted people to feel what they were feeling

[Phil C]

As a couple of people have said (but no-one's commented on) the important lines in the song are 'Sterilise rapists/All I preach is extinction' - in other words, we're all rapists, therefore all criminals, therefore we *all* deserve the death penalty. And that's why I love the lyric despite being anti-death penalty; because it completely subverts where you think the lyric is going.

Take that final couplet out of the song and you'd be right that it's just pro-death penalty. But Richey at the time, and therefore 'The Holy Bible' as a whole, is on a different scale and the songs are linked. 'Of Walking Abortion' answers the question 'Who's responsible?' with '*You* fucking are'. 'Archives' picks that up and takes it a stage further - if we're all responsible, all guilty, then we should be punished. And if you're staring into the abyss of 'Mausoleum' or hearing 'The Intense Humming Of Evil' then there's only one solution - get rid of humankind altogether because we're completely corrupt.

Seeing 'AoP' as simply pro-death penalty ignores that brilliant twist in the last lines, and reduces the song to something less than it actually is.

[tzb]

Originally Posted by Phil C

'Sterilise rapists/All I preach is extinction' - in other words, we're all rapists, therefore all criminals, therefore we *all* deserve the death penalty.

Hang on, hang on... Extinction of rapists or murderers maybe (those being the object of the song), the word "extinction" thus making them an inferior sub-class of our species, choosing not to identify with them as the same as "normal" people, but killing off the whole species? In a song which explicitly criticises indiscriminate murderers? I don't see it that way at all and I think that's a fair leap - he differentiates rapists then talks about extinction, to me that implies extinction of the offending type of individuals by removing their right to breed (extinction of rape itself through extinction of rapists), not of the whole human race. Without some basis of belief in the rest of humanity the song loses absolutely all of its meaning. If we're all rapists and deserving of the death penalty, how can you "remember victims"? In that view they got what they deserved.

And anyway if he were to make a statement as bold as "all humans deserve to die", do you really think he'd disguise it behind such an obtuse lyric? That doesn't sound like the Richey I'm familiar with.

I think the context is crucial; extinction only as opposed to what people ordinarily preach: forgiveness, atonement, faith. I see it as the denial of those approaches in favour of annhialation for offenders rather than some explicit sentiment everyone deserves to die.

[franny]

One simply does not get this level of discussion on an Oasis or Coldplay forum (I would imagine)

[raven]

Originally Posted by tzb

Is it pro-death penalty or is it ironic? Or is there a tension/ambivalence between the two views in the song, a kind of agreeing and ridiculing in the same lines?

Some questions, there. I don't have any answers but I like it because it poses them, it has great imagery and a quality tune.

It's pro death penalty. Tis a Richey lyric and the views are his own - not shared by the rest of the band who have expressed a bit o' discomfort over them.

I remember random stuff like this.

It's against the glorification of killers too, I think that's maybe what inspired it - at the time I remember Charles Manson being a bit of a cult figure - I guess he's long been one for some - but there seemed a fashion at one point for Charlie t-shirts....and o course it ties in the bigger themes of the album - the holocaust, the mass killers with the more personal stories of murderers and their victims - from Milosevic to Hindley & Brady. All leave victims, all often forgotten while their killers names live on.


And though it's not a typical Manic lyric, I'm maybe not a typical Manic fan for I've no objections, in principle, with the death penalty

[Phil C]

Originally Posted by tzb

Hang on, hang on... Extinction of rapists or murderers maybe (those being the object of the song), the word "extinction" thus making them an inferior sub-class of our species, choosing not to identify with them as the same as "normal" people, but killing off the whole species? In a song which explicitly criticises indiscriminate murderers? I don't see it that way at all and I think that's a fair leap - he differentiates rapists then talks about extinction, to me that implies extinction of the offending type of individuals by removing their right to breed (extinction of rape itself through extinction of rapists), not of the whole human race.

Whereas I'd say you're twisting the word 'extinction' here, and you're trying to force the lyrics to fit narrow definitions that have little to do with the lyrics themselves. Don't just look at 'extinction';

'Dont be ashamed to slaughter - the centre of humanity is cruelty' is as broad and all-encompassing a statement as you can get and makes no attemp to narrow the field of those it accuses, as you are saying it does.

'If man makes death, death makes man' - not, 'if some clearly defined men make death, death makes that same narrow group'. 'Man' is at fault - all of it.

And you've ignored the way the rest of the album impacts on the song - as I said, '*You* fucking are' - not, '*A specific, narrow, clearly defined group of you fucking are'. And indeed, the title of that song is from the SCUM manifesto - another document that sees 'men' in general, not groups of men in particular, as the problem.

'The Holy Bible' doesn't pinpoint targets, it lashes out at everyone - even the band themselves.

And how does killing rapists stop rape? You've got to rape someone to be a rapist, and it's not like being a rapist is hereditory.

Personally if there's an uncomfortable line in it i'd say it 'The weak die young and right now we crouch to make them strong', which to me is almost suggesting culling the weak in society so we don't have to carry them.

Originally Posted by tzb

And anyway if he were to make a statement as bold as "all humans deserve to die", do you really think he'd disguise it behind such an obtuse lyric? That doesn't sound like the Richey I'm familiar with.

Er...nearly all the lyrics on 'tHB' are obtuse, that's why even the band struggle to explain what half of them mean. They might have the occasional clear line but largely they're very dense and have to have their meanings unpicked.
Edit: In fairness, I should expand that general themes of many of the songs on 'tHB' are relatively clear, just not the meaning of their every line. But if you want to consider Richey's lyrics at the time, he hardly made it easy for us to understand the point of 'Revol', 'Of Walking Abortion', 'Faster', 'Removables' or most of the 'JFPL' lyrics, did he? And most of those with general themes were about more than them; is 'Yes' just about prostitution, or is it a metaphor for how Richey felt (and 'Small Black Flowers' is the same but with a different image)? Why expect 'AoP' to be any clearer or single-track in its meaning?

Originally Posted by tzb

I think the context is crucial; extinction only as opposed to what people ordinarily preach: forgiveness, atonement, faith. I see it as the denial of those approaches in favour of annhialation for offenders rather than some explicit sentiment everyone deserves to die.

But while admitting that context is important you're taking the lyric *out* of context by not seeing it as part of a mindset that shaped the album. If 'Of Walking Abortion' blames humanity in general, why should you find it hard to believe this song does too? You also seem to be ignoring several lines in the 'Archives' lyric that *don't* specify targets but who include the whole human race (as I've quoted above). How do you square your 'specific' interpretation with the lyrics as actually written?

[vtn]

Originally Posted by Phil C

If 'Of Walking Abortion' blames humanity in general, why should you find it hard to believe this song does too? You also seem to be ignoring several lines in the 'Archives' lyric that *don't* specify targets but who include the whole human race (as I've quoted above). How do you square your 'specific' interpretation with the lyrics as actually written?

Because the main theme of the song is the execution of criminals, and the previous line is "sterilize rapists". If rapists cannot have children, and we assume that likelihood to become a rapist is genetic (though I don't know if science backs that up), sterilization of rapists --> extinction of rapists.

I'm actually a bit confused by the "you fucking are" in Of Walking Abortion. Since the phrase originally referred to men in Valerie Solanas's writing (missing half a chromosome = incomplete human being = abortion (somehow...)), and the speaker is male, maybe the 'you' is women because women give birth to male children.

Or maybe not.

[Phil C]

Originally Posted by vtn

Because the main theme of the song is the execution of criminals, and the previous line is "sterilize rapists". If rapists cannot have children, and we assume that likelihood to become a rapist is genetic (though I don't know if science backs that up), sterilization of rapists --> extinction of rapists.

Rape is a choice. It has nothing to do with genetics. Just because your father was a rapist doesn't mean you will be. It's a bit like saying the only people who are writers are the children of writers.

Originally Posted by vtn

I'm actually a bit confused by the "you fucking are" in Of Walking Abortion. Since the phrase originally referred to men in Valerie Solanas's writing (missing half a chromosome = incomplete human being = abortion (somehow...)), and the speaker is male, maybe the 'you' is women because women give birth to male children.

Or maybe not.

I think the 'you' is universal, but your point makes me reconsider part of my argument about 'Archives Of Pain'; perhaps 'extinction' is of men, which - genetic science aside - would still mean extinction. Hmm. Either way, it's still a pretty wide-sweeping statement.

[raven]

Originally Posted by Phil C

As a couple of people have said (but no-one's commented on) the important lines in the song are 'Sterilise rapists/All I preach is extinction' - in other words, we're all rapists, therefore all criminals, therefore we *all* deserve the death penalty. And that's why I love the lyric despite being anti-death penalty; because it completely subverts where you think the lyric is going.

Take that final couplet out of the song and you'd be right that it's just pro-death penalty. But Richey at the time, and therefore 'The Holy Bible' as a whole, is on a different scale and the songs are linked. 'Of Walking Abortion' answers the question 'Who's responsible?' with '*You* fucking are'. 'Archives' picks that up and takes it a stage further - if we're all responsible, all guilty, then we should be punished. And if you're staring into the abyss of 'Mausoleum' or hearing 'The Intense Humming Of Evil' then there's only one solution - get rid of humankind altogether because we're completely corrupt.

Seeing 'AoP' as simply pro-death penalty ignores that brilliant twist in the last lines, and reduces the song to something less than it actually is.

The blood of the innocents stains us all - we're all responsible if we turn away, if we're apathetic. Mausoleum and The Intense Humming show us what we are all capable of, what man is capable of. The lyrics can be nihilistic but they're not utterly devoid of humanity and if there's a theme it's that the voiceless are given a voice ... that their deaths be not in vain, that they're not dismissed by those who would distort history and deny the holocaust, nor by those who glorify the serial killer

Originally Posted by Phil C

'Dont be ashamed to slaughter - the centre of humanity is cruelty' is as broad and all-encompassing a statement as you can get and makes no attemp to narrow the field of those it accuses, as you are saying it does.

If hospitals cure then prisons must bring their pain - do not be ashamed to slaughter, the centre of humanity is cruelty' - to sentence to death those who have killed is logical is what it's saying. We are each of us capable of cruelty, it's a natural part of our make-up, do not be ashamed to harness it to kill a killer

Originally Posted by Phil C

'If man makes death, death makes man' - not, 'if some clearly defined men make death, death makes that same narrow group'. 'Man' is at fault - all of it.

Or death makes the man - defines the man -tear at the torso with horses and chains, don't punish less rise the pain - destroy him, grant him no respect, no dignity

Originally Posted by Phil C

And how does killing rapists stop rape? You've got to rape someone to be a rapist, and it's not like being a rapist is hereditory.

Sterilise rapists

Originally Posted by Phil C

Personally if there's an uncomfortable line in it i'd say it 'The weak die young and right now we crouch to make them strong', which to me is almost suggesting culling the weak in society so we don't have to carry them.

Only to you. You crouch to lift them up, you carry them, take their burden. The entire album is in defence of the weak, the powerless.

[Porco]

(I'm going to cheat, and with thanks to google, re-post my thoughts from 2005 on this subject... *pastes*)

In itself I think the lyrics do seem very pro-death penalty, but I think the overall essence of the song, when considered in the context of its title and its context in the album is more to do with feelings of pain, perhaps the imbalance that could be said to exist regarding the infamous status afforded to the well-known miscreants the song refers to.

I think it's more about the pain that is buried in the hearts and minds of those who suffer the losses, an attempt to express the inner turmoil and desperation in victims' relatives and close ones. That is to say, to me I read it being more about an emotional thirst for justice where there can be none, not an attempt at a logical argument for capital punishment, I think the opening sample reflects this as well.

[Maggie Kowalski]

I think Nicky's description of the song is quite interesting and that's how I interpret it too.

This song also reminds me of the first part of the Torture Garden by Mirbeau (there's a quote taken from this book in the HB booklet so I guess it was one of their influences). One of the philosophers says something like: everyone is a potential killer, and even in the most civilised populations where we are constantly told "you shall not murder", killing people is sometimes glorified. We celebrate and glorify soldiers, warriors, "furious and baroque gods" to use Mirbeau's expression and war is a "regularized murder and a national duty".

I think AoP is about this duality. We are taught that killing is bad but violence is everywhere and sometimes seen as necessary, we know that killers should not be glorified but they fascinate us and by wanting to know more about them we give them a lot of attention, and in my opinion it's the same thing with death penalty in the song: even if you're against the death penalty, sometimes you can't help thinking that a guy who killed 24 people in cold blood should die too. Instinct vs reason, something like that.

[Bryter Layter]

Although I'm really enjoying the various interpretations of this song, I find it a wee bit odd that not many of you seem to be interested in making a connection between Richey's state of mind/views on the world at the time this tune was written. There are plenty of articles/Interviews from that time that give an indication as to what was going through his mind at this stage suggesting that he was indeed in favour of the death penalty in certain circumstances yet no one seems to be addressing this. Instead it seems the main consensus is to use Nicky's interpretations made several years after the fact. I find that particularly interesting. I guess people automatically gravitate towards the opinion that makes more sense to them or eases their own doubts.

[tzb]

The quote where Nicky described the intent of the song was contemporary, "Melody Maker 27.8.94". I believe he absolutely may have had some sympathies with the death penalty but I don't believe that song is written in his voice - it's too severe, too one-sided, too vengefully emotive and intellectually detached. My belief would be something along the lines of what Nicky said. There is a definite dichotomy in the song to me, between the rationale for punishing killers and the macabre, violent urge for revenge/humiliation (the respect they deserve).

Just my pov though.

[Maggie Kowalski]

I should read Richey's interviews again, I don't remember what he said about the death penalty, that's why I mentionned Nicky's point of view.
Even if Richey had left-wing views on some issues, he never really hides the fact that he also had conservative views on some issues and I think everybody feels like this sometimes, that's what the song is questionning.