Biggest Manic Folly?

[Futurologist]

Originally Posted by proevpete

Great thread.

The biggest Manics folly for me is not dealing strategically with huge commercial success circa 1998-2001. With TIMT they were the biggest band in the UK at the time: a platinum selling album, hit singles, critical acclaim. The peak of which was the Millennium gig - 60,000 people paying to go and see a Manics concert.

The key moment for me is getting No.1 with Masses Against the Classes. Again it was a sign of their popularity at the time but I think it gave them (them as in the band, management, label etc) a false sense of superiority. Bands need to remember (especially when their egos are at their biggest) that they are successful because they are producing music that appeals to the masses - not that the masses have suddenly realised the appeal of your band and its manifesto.

They've spoken about how commercial success didn't sit well with them. I think this is mainly due to the guilt of their acquired wealth after Richey's disappearance rather than any artistic issues. Wire has been trying for the last 10 years for the band to return to those levels of commercial popularity ffs. We all know he'll whore himself out for any commercial cause.

Put simply, the 'concept' of Know Your Enemy was a complete failure. They talk about Lifeblood as their most vacuous moment but truly it was KYE. Now I say 'conceptually' and I mean that in terms of its strategic implications in the overall trajectory of the Manics career and legacy. I like the album a lot. There are some great tunes on there. But believing that success came from some sort of artistic power that allowed them to turn their backs on the business and still maintain their level of appeal was their greatest folly. It was their biggest mistake and took them 6 years to recover from. If they had of released another MOR chart rock album (like SATT) they would have released probably 2 more albums with solid critical and commercial success in 2003 and 2005 - rather than choosing (and choosing is the word) to fall back on an awful Greatest Hits and a (quite frankly) 'who gives a fuck' B-sides collection in 2003.

I'm going to have another think about this and get back to you all....

This. Brilliant post. I like KYE, but it just wasn't right for them at the time.



IMHO: Biggest folly = James' beard. Many do not agree.

[hummingbird]

Gutless will come into this thread tommorrow and spam post *i love that album* * nothing wrong with KYE* etc etc

[Parma Violets]

Let's say they made a more commercial album at that time, though - how long would it have lasted them? The whole of the last decade in music seems to have been a case of diminishing returns for commercial rock bands. Would they have been able to help drag mainstream rock music in a better direction during the "landfill indie" years, or would they have felt the need to cut ties with the mainstream eventually? Maybe KYE just accelerated the inevitable. I do think on its own terms it's quite a frustrating album, though.

[framedadolescence]

Originally Posted by proevpete

believing that success came from some sort of artistic power that allowed them to turn their backs on the business and still maintain their level of appeal was their greatest folly

After the commercial Gold Against The Soul they made The Holy Bible

After TIMT they made Know Your Enemy

After Send Away The Tigers they made Journal For Plague Lovers

They've always been at odds with themselves over wether they want to be commercial or not. KYE isn't a black sheep as regards that.

[Futurologist]

Originally Posted by hummingbird

Gutless will come into this thread tommorrow and spam post *i love that album* * nothing wrong with KYE* etc etc

Where is she tonight?

I do actually love the sound of KYE, but it wasn't the right time for it after the massive success of EMG and TIMT. It sounded too different.

[hummingbird]

Originally Posted by shug

Where is she tonight?

I do actually love the sound of KYE, but it wasn't the right time for it after the massive success of EMG and TIMT. It sounded too different.

past her bedtime i expects..

The frustrating thing about KYE is that individual songs are great but as an album it just doesn't work.. i've tried so hard to like it but They had planned to release a double album but bottled it. Think that might've been a better idea ... double albums are always risky but they might've flowed better

[Flint]

I adore KYE and I don't think its timing was wrong stylistically or anything, but the whole "let's alienate the masses and destroy the spotlight of fame" ethos behind it was incredibly silly and daft.

[starstruck]

Originally Posted by proevpete

Great thread.

The biggest Manics folly for me is not dealing strategically with huge commercial success circa 1998-2001. With TIMT they were the biggest band in the UK at the time: a platinum selling album, hit singles, critical acclaim. The peak of which was the Millennium gig - 60,000 people paying to go and see a Manics concert.

The key moment for me is getting No.1 with Masses Against the Classes. Again it was a sign of their popularity at the time but I think it gave them (them as in the band, management, label etc) a false sense of superiority. Bands need to remember (especially when their egos are at their biggest) that they are successful because they are producing music that appeals to the masses - not that the masses have suddenly realised the appeal of your band and its manifesto.

you're on to something here; but i'm going to take a slightly different angle. was it not that big commercial success that made them think "well, let's give them more of what they want" rather than clocking "they like what we do, so let's keep on doing it"? it would explain the "disjointed" sense many get from KYE - "oh, people like a bit of politics, let's do something about Robeson, and that Cuban lad. quite a few liked the dancy stuff, let's do So Why So Sad. aw, bless, the crowd goes mad for Motown Junk, here's one called Found That Soul"? to this extent i tend to disagree with the last part of your post that i've quoted here.

i think we are all looking forward to your further thoughts on the subject.

[starstruck]

Originally Posted by shug

Where is she tonight?

I do actually love the sound of KYE, but it wasn't the right time for it after the massive success of EMG and TIMT. It sounded too different.

she was in earlier, but did contribute earlier by saying that their biggest folly was not releasing Glasnost as a single. i understand this thread is getting a bit tl;dr but that post is well worth finding - it is not every day, week, year, leap year or decade that we see Gutless saying something that one could possibly be interepreted as somewhat critical of the band.

[The Gutless Wonder]

I'm here! My ears were burning!

I do have my occasional moans at them. They are very rare though!

[Parma Violets]

I would like to say that I do like The_Gutless_Wonder's unflagging positivity, especially when it alights on a Manics pariah that I've always loved.

[The Gutless Wonder]

Originally Posted by hummingbird

Gutless will come into this thread tommorrow and spam post *i love that album* * nothing wrong with KYE* etc etc

Yup!

[The Gutless Wonder]

Originally Posted by Parma Violets

I would like to say that I do like The_Gutless_Wonder's unflagging positivity, especially when it alights on a Manics pariah that I've always loved.

Thanks! As I always say, it's a tough job but someone's got to do it!

[starstruck]

Originally Posted by The Gutless Wonder

I'm here! My ears were burning!

I do have my occasional moans at them. They are very rare though!

yes, and then you quickly withdraw them and play the record that you complained about on repeat to "correct" your thinking. Dan Brown is going to feature you in one of them books he does one day.

and we love you for it

[starstruck]

btw, and watch someone pull the rug from under me just now, but 48 votes, 6 pages of ace conversation and not one vote cast or comment made that Lifeblood was their greatest folly.

what can i say? eat shit, Mr James Dean Bradfield. we like/love it, or at least don't hold it high as a low.